MB requirements not met?

[Bob White]

Sue

It is far more than unnecessary, it is a violation of the BSA Advancment Policies and the unit has no authority to be doing it.

 

If any scout should be refused by the improper review you are required to give him a written explanation and inform him of the appeals process that he can pursue through the council and national advancement committees.

 

That's a lot of work just to do something wrong isn't it?

 

You will find Sue that many unit "traditions" are just things that have been done wrong for so long that they now believe it to be right.

 

Who said a scout had to get used to BoRs? One per rank, and one per palm is all that most need to do. Besides what is there to get used to? These are supposed to be positive conversations, not anything that should require practice.

 

Sorry Sue, but what the unit is doing is just wrong, and there is nothing in the BSA program that supports it.

 

The question is, are you willing to do anything to set things right?

 

[Oak Tree]

Our recent summer camp doesn't do blue cards. They do give us a list of the accomplishments that each boy has completed. These lists are uniformly egregiously exaggerated. We have each Scout review the list, to make sure he's getting credit for what he actually did. We take the Scout's word for what he's completed. The Scouts all tell the truth (as far as we can tell) and claim far fewer accomplishments than the camp gave them credit for.

 

Oak Tree

[Lynda J]

One thing our troop does on badges that we question is have the scout help with teaching that badge in the future. Or teach a skill learned to a Cub Den. It gives the scout a chance to use skills learned and us a chance to see how well he understands the material.

 

Last year the last day of summer camp we got back blue cards on one scout that were all signed off. I found the counselor and told him that this scout had left two days early because of a family emergency and could not have completed the badges.

He told me that he had recorded him as complete.

There was basically nothing I could do. We did talk to the Camp Director and Program director.

Later we talked to the scout and his dad. The scout knew he had not done the work and told us he had not earned the badges. We helped him complete the necessary requirements.

 

But once a scout has that signed off blue card by all rights he has earned the badge.

[mmhardy]

Bob White is right, whats done is done. It has seen way too much adult second guessing in what is supposedly a boy led program. A parent cannot add a requirement, a feeling, or second guess what an approved BSA councilor as already signed off on. If it means that much to you then come back as a MB councilor yourself and ensure that the boy does the requirements!!!

[dan]

Scouts teaching merit badges?!?!

another one to add to the list.

 

 

[Bob White]

Actually anyone can help teach, but only a registered, approved counselor can test.

[madkins007]

I am NOT a fan of merit badge workshops, some forms of merit badge classes at meetings, or even (gasp!) many of the merit badges done at camp- in fact, of almost ANY form of 'group-earned' merit badges, and this conversation is an example of why.

 

In my experience, ANYTIME I wonder about the legitimacy of a badge award, the Scout involved was a part of a larger class, and I am uncomfortably uncertain that the counselor in the group setting really, truely TESTED the Scout for skills and knowledge.

 

It seems to me that in most group settings, the badge is all too often awarded for attendence or classroom work of some sort.

 

I FULLY agree with Bob White that the MBC is THE final authority of who has and has not earned a badge, but I have also been known to talk to Scouts (privately) about whether they really feel they earned a badge I suspect was not really done properly. If they think they earned it, however, that ends it.

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

I don't like merit badge camps or universities or whatever you want to call them because the quality of instruction is usually not that good. It is better to choose a MB counselor from the MB counselor list & have the Scout get more personalized instruction.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

The problems I have seen with Merit Badge Days, MB Universities, etc. aare the same that I see in summer camps. The problem is not the quality of the instructor, I ahve seen excellent teaching at all these places. The problem is that they do group testing and that is a violation of the BSA advancement policies. Scouts must earn merit badges based on individual testing.

 

Asking a group of scouts a first aid question and giving every one credit for the answer is like asking one person at a shooting range to fire at a target and giving everyone there his same score.

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

Exactly! Fortunately, for some reason the merit badge 'college' idea has been a dismal failure in this area for a few years now (at the district level, it hasn't been tried any other way that I know of). I have no idea why but the boys seem to have no interest in participating in those 'colleges'.

[evmori]

Good point, Bob. Although, I have noticed at the summer camp we attend each Scout must complete the demonstrate or show or explain requirements individually.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

I think there is a fine line here between "reviewing" MBs and counseling a scout when you know, or strongly suspect, that the MB work wasn't really done.

Let's take as the easiest example of this the case of the blue cards that were signed off as complete for the Scout who left camp early and couldn't have completed the MBs. Let's assume that even in this extreme case you have no authority to take away the MBs, because the MBC has awarded them. What can you do? It certainly seems to me that you can discuss the situation with the Scout and ask him how he wants to deal with it. I have to think that most scouts will want to do the MB over, or at least do the missed requirements and show you that he can do them.

[anarchist]

Hi all,

 

Two interesting "bits" for this thread...

 

First, just got back from our troop flat-water training weekend. This is a weekend-long "learn to paddle a canoe" activity with some ultimate, soccer, fishing and this year Small boat sailing in the troops "new" 16 foot "Hawk" sailboat, thrown in for "breaks". Except for the green bars this weekend is primarily aimed at 11,12,and 13 year olds...

Many, if not all, of the 13 year olds (6 of them) and 3 of the 12 yr olds have "recieved" the Canoeing Merit badge at Summer Camp (six of these this past summer...just 2 months ago)...ONLY 4 scouts (two boats) out of 14 could propel their canoe forward in a vague appoximation of a "semi-straight" line! NONE of the merit badge holders knew how to correctly enter or exit the canoe and five didn't even know how to hold a paddle correctly let alone "stroke" with it.

 

It was like watching the instructors(I was one) "try to drive a herd of cats"! I expected the challenges of the NSP scouts, but was very disapointed buy the overall lack of knowledge and basic skills exibited by canoing M.B. holders. Of course, I wish there was a way to withdraw those M.B.s but that is water already under the canoe (under the bridge)so to speak...

 

I HOPE SOME CAMP DIRECTORS ARE READING THIS FORUM! Two summer camps are certainly suspect now in my "book" and I will actively discourage the troop from using them...

 

The second bit is more distressing (personally)...My youngest, (star, pretty good scout) has "stopped" working towards rank. Two summer ago (2004), he did Sea Base and had a blast...He finished his year as a troop guide, declined the Scoutmaster's request to run for SPL and this past summer he also declined to go to summercamp. He did participate in our 110 mile canoe trip on the James River so I did not "push" summer camp...

 

Yesterday evening, while I was cleaning-up, unpacking the gear, washing down canoes, having a cold one (you know the drill), I was recounting the weekend canoe "circus" to my wife. Then she told me that the reason "number two son" has stopped working on M.B.s (and thus life rank)is because so many boys are advancing with "bogus" Merit Badges and bogus sign offs! He has told his mother that as far as he is concerned summer camp M.B.s are a sorry joke and he would be embarrassed and rather not stand in front of the CoHs receiving "garbage-worthless" ranks and M.B.s! He told her he has friends in other troops who have recieved major Merit Badges for just going to camp and showing up...who have takedn group first aid classes and never answered a question but recieved credit for it towards rank...boys who couldn't tell a square lash from a shear...but got pioneering for helping drag poles and lifting up the towers! Boys who have used the same three hour service project for two different ranks! He is sorely disillusioned but wouldn't really come out and tell me.

 

He still wants to camp and work service projects but he has lost his desire to "work on give aways". Why should he "do the work"(cause dad does not let him "skate by") when others are given the same badges for going through the motions, playing "magic" or sleeping in M.B. class at summer camp? ...He has a point...

 

I am thinking now that serious consideration (by BSA)should be given to allowing NO Eagle required M.B.s be signed off at summer camps and further I am now rethinking who in a troop should be allowed to sign off on rank accomplishments...this has been rather unsettling and I think I'll be talking at length at our next troop cracker barrel...

anarchist

 

 

[packsaddle]

Anarchist, That is an extremely distressing situation. Unfortunately, I completely understand what you are writing about. I guess we actually have it a little better at the camp we traditionally attend. Although the waterfront is small (no sailing or powerboats) the staff seem to do a fairly good job on the MBs that they do offer as well as the other aquatic activities.

But after that the similarities are striking. I would endorse your proposal with emphasis on any 'knowledge-based' MB, such as the citizenships, all the nature stuff, and a few others. The camps need to either do it right or stop doing it.

[OldGreyEagle]

anarchist, I feel your pain, I have seen the same thing. An Emergency prep class being taught with boys 3 and 4 rows around around a single instructor who was tying the rescue harness and when he was done, all received credit for it, even those talking in the back row who had no idea of what was going on.

 

A trip to the Camp Director setttled the issue and the next day the class all tied, or at least tried to tie the harness.

 

If you have issues with a Camp's merit badge program, let the program director, camp director, and Council executive know about it and what the specifics flaws are. Dont send a general your merit badge program stinks, but give examples as to what was done and what should have been done. Make it as concrete as possible. We spend a lot of time trying to figure what to do with the scouts who skate by, we should also spend time changing the system that allows skate byes as well.

 

I can understand having delusions of a great float trip with boys just itching to try out new found skills only to learn they didnt know much of anything. In the troop I frequent, 8 boys got the Pioneering merit badge, I was impressed, I also wasnt at camp that year. A few months later I asked a couple of the boys if in preparation for the fall camporee it they could make a tower, utter blank faces was all i got, I asked them if they could splice some rope, utter blank faces, I asked them what they built as their project, answer? One monkey bridge for about 30 scouts. AAARRRRRGGGHHHHH!!!

 

Anyway, I had to vent. While we may ask what can we do with scouts who do not have and were never taught the required skills, we also have to expend energy correcting the system