Appropriate Questions at BOR

[Trevorum]

... if we take our obligation as mentors seriously, we should not mindlessly accept whatever a Scout happens to spew out.

 

I think I understand why you feel this way. However, do you realize that this is in direct contradiction to official BSA policy which says that BSA is "absolutely non-sectarian" in matters of religion.

 

Moreover, the BSA bylaws state that " ... activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion." By expressing disapproval of a scout's religious beliefs you are violating this bylaw. You don't have to accept his beliefs, but you must allow him to freely believe in them.

[Rooster7]

If the parents of a Scout was to tell me, "Weve taught our son that it is his religious duty to attend services every Sunday", then I'd expect that Scout to make a serious attempt to be there every Sunday. If a Jewish Scout is taught by his family to never eat pork, Id expect that Scout to comply with this teaching. These are reasonable expectations. We should be teaching and encouraging Scouts to take their religious obligations seriously. If a Scout has been given permission by his parents to pursue whatever religion he pleases, then fine. But we should inquire what faith he has embraced, and ask him to show us how he's been faithful to its teachings.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Trevorum]

Hunt - atheism is not a "religion" because, by definition, it does not embrace a theology (beliefs in supernatural entities or forces).

 

Rooster, I am still very curious why you claim, "Not every religion is openly accepted by the BSA."

[SemperParatus]

Didn't the Supreme Court state in Torcaso v Watkins (1961), Footnote 11 that secular humanism is a religion? Is not secular humanism a form of atheism?

 

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=367&invol=488

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

As already noted, Im fairly certain that the BSA does not recognize Satanism as a religion that is compatible with BSA values.

 

Regardless, anyone can create a religion. Scientology didnt exist 50 or 60 years ago. NAMBLA could create their own religionIf they did, do you think the BSA would feel compelled to recognize and accept them as a legitimate religion? Non-sectarian means the BSA does not require its members to be of a particular faith. Nevertheless, you must have a faith in God, and that faith must be compatible with the BSAs values. How about this for catch-22If all faiths must be accepted, what would the BSA do if an unnamed religion taught the antithesis of the Scout Law?

 

In my opinion, theres more room here for counseling and guidance than what most folks are indicating.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Trevorum]

Rooster, now that is an interesting question. I, too, don't know whether BSA has ever confronted the issue with self-proclaimed Satanists. I don't know much about that belief system, but a bit of quick reasearch has led me to suspect that BSA probably prefers to avoid the issue entirely; there appears to be a lot of hype about Satanism going way back to the witch-burning days, but the core beliefs don't seem to be incompatable with core BSA principles.

 

from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanis1.htm

 

"Religious Satanism is a valid religion, generally followed by adults. It is essentially unrelated to teen Satanic dabbling and to various other beliefs and practices that have been described as Satanism.

 

The largest of the many traditions within Religious Satanism is the Church of Satan (CoS) ... The beliefs, practices and rituals of the Church of Satan have few, if any, points of similarity with the Christian or Muslim concept of Satan. The CoS' Satan is pre-Christian, and derived from the Pagan image of power, virility, sexuality and sensuality. Satan is viewed as a force of nature, not a living quasi-deity. Their Satan has nothing to do with Hell, demons, pitchforks, sadistic torture, demonic possession, and profound evil. ...

 

Some of their beliefs and practices are:

 

They do not worship a living deity.

 

Major emphasis is placed on the power and authority of the individual Satanist, rather than on a god or goddess.

 

They believe that "no redeemer liveth" - that each person is their own redeemer, fully responsible for the direction of their own life.

 

Satanism respects and exalts life. Children and animals are the purest expressions of that life force, and as such are held sacred and precious.

 

There are probably fewer than 10,000 religious Satanists in North America.

 

In answer to your question, if Satanism (or your "unnamed religion") could be shown to violate the principles of the Scout Oath and Law (for example, by teaching that lying is good), then I believe members could not legitimately join BSA because they could not promise to uphold the Law and Oath.

 

Rooster, yes, you are correct that "anyone can creat a religion". It happens all the time. Most of them fail (Jim Jones, David Koresh)), some gain a foothold (Ron Hubbard, Bah'u'llh), and some are spectacularly successful (Jesus, Mohammed). If Brad Pitt started a new religion tomorrow based on the teachings of the Big Bopper and revolving around the mysteries of some 'Master Talent' force and next week had 50,000 converts, who would BSA to say that these people could not be Scouts?

 

 

[Trevorum]

That last sentence should read, "... why should BSA say that these people ..."

 

(still unable to edit my own posts!)

[Hunt]

I agree that there would be some point at which one could reasonably say, "This isn't a religion and you're just mocking religion." However, I don't think it's that easy to find that point--there are some pretty successful religions, that, in my view, began as cynical fakery by charlatans. And yet, the current adherents can be very serious, faithful persons. I don't think you can judge a religion by its appearance of nuttiness to others--virtually every religion would fail by that measure, including mine.

[NJCubScouter]

If "Duty to "God" means that a BOR member asks a Scout "Do you believe in God," then maybe it is time to rethink what that "duty" means. I do not think anyone has any business asking that question. It is both "personal" and "private" and it is nobody else's business. If someone wants to ask a less intrusive version such as "How do you do your duty to God," at least that is directly tied to the wording of the Scout Oath so I can't object to it, though I am more comfortable in my son's troop where (as far as I know) they don't ask at all, and apparently choose instead to determine a boy's performance of his duty by his behavior and attitude toward others. I have noticed that at Eagle courts of honor, the m.c. will sometimes refer to "duty to God" and "reverence" and how the young man faithfully performed his duties by going to church, and that's all great... but at other COH's the boy's religious life is not mentioned at all, and that's fine too. The CO makes its sanctuary available for Eagle COH's and some choose to avail themselves of this while others prefer the gym building next door where the troop meets, or another location. I personally do not need a troop where references to religion are all-pervasive, because my son and I can go elsewhere to practice our religious beliefs (which are not the same place, but that is beyond the scope of this post) and I am more comfortable if others practice their own religions on their own time. That is not to criticize how any other unit does things; I have no doubt that there are many units in the country that I would not want to be a member of, and fortunately there is at least one where I do.

 

As for "Satanism": I think it is sort of an "academic" issue as I doubt it affects anyone's membership in the BSA. As far as I know, for membership purposes (as opposed to recognizing religious awards or for other purposes) the BSA does not "accept" or "reject" any religion. It (mostly through its units) accepts or rejects (rarely) individual boys. I do not think there is a policy that says membership in a particular religious organization will disqualify someone from membership. Now, let's say Mr. Smith is known in town as being the local minister in the Church of Satan (I am not sure whether anyone would know that, and I do not know what the Church of Satan calls its leaders, since everything I know about the Church of Satan I learned in this thread and in the article Trevorum linked to, but let's assume.) Mr. Smith's son comes with his Dad to join the local Cub Scout pack. I suspect that the leaders of the Pack (hey, an idea for a song title) might want to have a word with Mr. Smith. And let's say it turns out the boy himself attends services in his father's church and is considered a member. The leaders might ask, does this boy believe in devil worship? (According to Trevorum's link, the answer will probably be no, although the portion of the link Trevorum has quoted raises the question of whether the Church of Satan members are actually atheists, which obviously raises a different question.) They might want to know, does he believe in and practice the values of Scouting, i.e. honesty, respect, kindness to animals (i.e. no sacrifices on the altar) etc. If the answers are unsatisfactory, they may legitimately decline the application. Similarly, if for example the boy does join the troop but later takes to telling his den-mates "I am a disciple of the devil and will have him send you all to Hell," well then, Houston, we have a problem. But if he behaves properly, there shouldn't be a problem, "Church of Satan" or not. In other words it is how the person acts that determines whether he has a place in Scouting, not what his unexpressed beliefs may be (unless he is actually an atheist, but if his beliefs are unexpressed nobody will know.)

[Trevorum]

"... the question of whether the Church of Satan members are actually atheists, which obviously raises a different question."

 

NJ, I had the same thought, but then started thinking about the apparent similarities (at least from an outsiders perspective, and based solely on the summaries at that website) with Buddhist philosophy.

 

In any event, I think that the scenario is most unlikely. I suspect that mosts Satanists tend to be rather counter-culturist and would not desire to join such a traditional organization as scouting; the two organizations are mutually self-exclusive despite the overlap in respect for nature, etc.

 

I think more likely would be attempts to join BSA by other misunderstood minorities such as Druids or or by practictioners of traditional Native American shamanist faiths. I'd really like to know more about those types of interactions. Hmmm ... that's a great idea for a research topic! ... I wonder if I could get funding ...?

[NJCubScouter]

Rooster says:

 

If the overseers of the BSA are of good character, then the reason why would be this: Because they believe that God and faith in Him should not be mocked. No one should confuse open-mindedness with foolery.

 

Well, there's the old problem, what you regard as mockery of God or faith, or as "foolery," may be someone else's religion. (There are groups that I regard as "mocking" (or worse) of "my" religion, most notably the Christian evangelical organization that calls itself "Jews For Jesus," but that doesn't mean that a member of that group should be excluded from the BSA.)

 

However, Rooster, I would not expect you to recognize this, because you have clearly and repeatedly stated your disagreement with the principle that one should respect the religious beliefs of others, which the Scout Handbook text on two different points of the Scout Law says we should do.

[Rooster7]

NJ,

 

What can I say? Youre an awesome example of open-mindedness and tolerance. Youd make Michael Moore blush...something that you have repeatedly demonstrated.

[NeilLup]

Hello Trevorum,

 

In terms of alternative and less mainstream religions, the Chaplain's Aide on our last Wood Badge course is Wiccan. The Scouts Own he wrote and put on was very meaningful. He is totally welcome in Scouting.

 

And to head off any inappropriate comments, yesterday, he was awarded the Army Commendation Medal with Bronze "V" for Valor for bravery in action in Iraq. He is in the National Guard and left for Iraq right after the course. His tour of duty is about 3/4 over.

[acco40]

Rooster, let me get this straight, so if a young lad, who joined the BSA to develop character, citizenship and physical fitness took it to heart and became a devout Christian, against his parents wishes, you would determine, at his BOR that he was NOT doing his duty to God because he was not following his parents wishes?

[Trevorum]

Hi Neil,

This young man has demonstrated bravery in more ways than one. My sincere wishes for his safe return to America.