Who decides who will earn Eagle Scout?

[dsteele]

The decision to earn the rank of Eagle Scout in the Boy Scouts of America is a singular decision. It requires the approval of several adults, true. It requires following a process, meeting requirements, a lot of work, but there is truly one and only one person who decides who will earn Eagle Scout and who will not.

 

That decision is entirely up to each and every Scout.

 

Period. End of report.

 

Before I go off the diving board here, let me tell you in case you haven't picked up on it. I earned my Eagle just a few days or weeks shy of my 14th birthday. I'm getting sick and tired of desparaging remarks made about young eagles and there are plenty of them in the world out there. Ironically, they seem to come from people who have either never earned the rank of Eagle or who earned it sometime between being 16 and 18.

 

But that's beside the point. The point is that all earned the rank. Actually, that's only one point.

 

My point is that whether or not the Scout decides early on that he wants to be an Eagle Scout and does as much as he can as quickly as he can to earn the rank, or whether he comes to the decision at a later age and does the work more slowly (but still within the age limit,) what you have at the end of the day is an Eagle Scout.

 

The argument against young Eagle Scouts is that a) they come from a troop that is an Eagle "factory" or b) their parents pushed them and/or did it for them.

 

Let's take a look at those:

 

A -- the troop Eagle factory

 

This can only happen, and even then the chance is very, very slim indeed, if the process is not followed. In other words, if the troop pushes kids through the advancement program, they must also bamboozle the district representative/district board of review (whichever way your council goes) into approving the candidate. The troop must have either faked dates on the eagle application, or be extremely precise in meeting them in order for the application to pass muster through the district advancement chairman, the check at the local council, and the double-check at National.

 

B -- the parents pushed them into it (or did it for them.) First of all, if the kid earned Eagle at 13, can we not agree that he's probably headstrong in one way or another? Have you ever tried to convince a headstrong 13 year old of anything? You may be able to "muscle 'em" but you're not going to convince them of a darn thing.

 

When it comes to older Scouts, you've probably heard the same stories of parents and leaders trying to push the kids to complete the requirements as I have. I've heard of everything from "You can't go to the prom unless you're an Eagle Scout." to "You can have this car I've put on blocks for you the day you earn Eagle."

 

I find that those threats don't really work . . . the kid has to decide for himself whether or not to earn the rank.

 

I do agree that some Eagle Scouts grow beyond what was needed to meet the requirements and, like a good wine, get better as they get older. But let us not forget that even freshly made wine is still wine . . . no matter how much better it may be once it has aged 10 years.

 

Whether you earn Eagle at age 18.99 or at age 12.99 -- when you're 30, 40, 50, 60, you are still held to the same standard expected of an Eagle Scout by Mr. or Mrs. John Q. Public.

 

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest.

 

Unc.

[ljnrsu]

Unc, Thanks for saying what need to be said.

 

You are absolutely correct. Only the Scout decides,since he is the one that must do the work involved. Noone can do it for him.

 

Your comment is so true.

"Have you ever tried to convince a headstrong 13 year old of anything? You may be able to "muscle 'em" but you're not going to convince them of a darn thing".

 

It reminds me of what a coworker once told me.You can always tell a teenager, but you can't tell it a darn thing.

 

An Eagle Scout is an Eagle Scout no matter what age they earned it.

 

BTW I earned my Eagle at 17.75, better late than never is how I look at it 33 years later.

[johndaigler]

Unc, not sure what exactly ruffled your feathers, but I hope that flight has put them back smooth.

 

Eagles are Eagles -- only non-Eagles would ever think to disparage them. And today's Eagles are every bit as Eagley as the ones who first flew back in the day!

 

As an "oh-so-close, but just a Lifer" Scout, yet me say, You da man! - And so is every 13 - 18 year old with his freshly minted wings!

 

jd

[ManyIrons]

Hey Unc, I agree wit-cha.

 

I've heard the negative comments about young Eagles and in my experience they've always come from adults who were Scouts and didn't make it.

 

Everytime I hear those type of remarks I mention that fact that I personally knew a 14 yr old Eagle. The troop was definitely not an Eagle Mill and his parents were not pushing him. This young man was very driven and it was obvious.

 

I've also seen the flip-side. I had one young man look at his watch and realize he had about 10 months to get his last few badges and a project completed. He took charge and got it done.

 

These two Scouts were exactly alike -- once they'd decided they wanted to earn their Eagle rank, they "planned the work and worked the plan", and I admire both of them.

[Eagledad]

Well, as my grandpa use to say, better reel in the hook son, your minnows dead.

 

I respectfully must say I think you guys are way off base. I don't know if any you guys where a Scoutmaster, but while I was a SM, I had to deal with a lot of adults who pushed for a program of older Eagles, and most of these adults were themselves Eagles. They weren't evil or trying to show up non Eagles, they were simply trying to protect the public respect of thier honorable fraternity. Go read Dugs comments on the Eagle post.

 

As for head strong teenagers, my experience is they are no match for the head strong parent who WILL insure their son is an Eagle.

 

Instead of turning this subject into the "revenge of the non-Eagle adults" or something silly like that, let me give you a statistic I've observed. The average age of Eagles in the troop is usually within a year of the average age of the older scouts in the troop. Not very sinister, is it?

 

One of the biggest Troops in our district brags that it also has the most eagles every year, usually around twenty or more. The average age of their Eagles is 14. It's a goo d program ,but what is not said about this troop of 150 scouts is they loose 70 percent of their older scouts by age 15. They really don't have an older boy program as far as I'm concerned.

 

On the other hand, another troop in the district had the largest group of older scouts in the Council. About 40 percent of the Troop was 14 or older. The average age of Eagles was mid 16's. They also had a few 14 and 15 year old Eagles to balance their late 17 year old Eagles.

 

So what is the real issue in this discussion? The evil non-eagle scouters out to get even, or a Troop that encourages a fun program that allows the scouts to grow and mature at their rate and that is fun and rewarding all they way to age 18?

 

You see, I don't buy any of this; boys loose interest after age 14 because of gas, girls and, well gas. OK, I liked fast cars. I dated my wife in a 73 Trans Am with Crager wheels.

 

Anyway, I digress. The best troop program is one that pushes the boy to do his best. The problem with a troop that doesn't allow young eagles is that their close mindedness likely limits all the boys in their dreams and ambitions. It's one thing to have a program where scouts are so busy having fun in the Eight methods that they are slow to earn Eagle. It's a different matter when a troop puts a bottom age limit on their program. They may claim it's all in the name of character, but the problem is the adults define the character.

 

So instead of bashing folks who didn't reach Eagle but give an hour of their time each week, just encourage them to support developing a program where scouts of all ages are free to have fun and be challenged to do is his best. If you do this, then those special boys will get their chance to be special.

 

As for the dead minnow, I'm glad we didn't use Beav's stink bait.

 

Barry

[ljnrsu]

Eagledad,as I said in my post. An Eagle Scout is an Eagle Scout no matter what age they earned it.

 

Some of the comments in the other post drove me batty. Adults holding boys back because they feel that age has something to do with "being" an Eagle is just wrong. Giving "back" before you age out.

 

If a boy has the drive and ambition to earn Eagle at 13 all the power to him. If on the other hand a boy is enjoying what his Unit is doing an earns Eagle at 17.99 that is ok also.

 

As for head strong teenagers, during my tenures as SM and ASM I have seen both sides of that coin. I have seen boys acquiesce to the pressure from parents. I also have seen almost as many boys quit because of it.

 

In 1977 after serving a tour of duty in Nam and getting a college degree I went back to my old Troop. I was ASM, then 6 months later the SM. During that 5 year tenure I was privileged to have 4 boys earn their Eagles.

 

When my oldest crossed over 10 years ago I got reinvolved as an ASM in his Unit, where I still am. In this tenure so far I also have been privileged to see 6 boys earn their Eagle, including both of my sons.

 

In between all of that I spent 8 years on our councils Eagle Board Of Review. I saw Eagle candidates from just under 14 to just under 18.

Age did not matter to me then and it does not matter now.

 

Why should leaders be concerned about an Eagle candidates age? National does not have an age requirement for Eagle. But that decision is well above my pay grade.

 

I whole heartily agree with you that the best program is the one that keeps the boys interested. While being fun and rewarding to the age of 18. As adult Leaders that is one of our goals.

 

Scouting is NOT about the parents,adult leaders or Unit committee. It is about the boys and only the boys. I consider my "job",is to help train, guide and assist them during their Scouting journey. It is their journey to take. It is all about what each individual boy wants. In the end it is the boy that has to do all the work. He has to earn the MB's, do the service projects, and all the other requirements in between.

 

 

 

[ManyIrons]

Off base because I stick up for a 14 yr old Eagle who really earned it on his own?

 

Off base because I praise a 17 yr old who realized he really did want to make Eagle and then made it happen?

 

Off base because I noted that, in my experience, those who disparage young Eagles, never made it to Eagle themselves? Sorry, but that has been, as I said, my experience.

 

I am the Scoutmaster of my troop and I neither push the young men in my troop to make Eagle rank, nor restrain them from it until they reach a certain age. My job, and the job of my assistants, is teach, guide, mentor, advise, coach, and support each Scout to develop and realize his own goals.

 

Anyone in my troop who finds the time to disparage the quality of a Scouts Eagle badge is invited to give their 1-hour 90 minutes a week elsewhere.

 

As for the rest of your post, you lost me.

 

[Eagle1973]

LET'S HEAR IT FOR YOUNG EAGLES!!!!

 

I too was a young Eagle, but I must confess that I got my last merit badge for my silver palm late in the evening, the day before my 18th b-day. (but that's another story)

 

It is funny to be in a leader's meeting or committee meeting and hear the others complain about so and so going too fast and how they don't want a young Eagle.... they always add: "present company excluded, of course...".

 

I just laugh and affirm to myself to help the hard chargers the best I can.

 

Cheers!

[Eagledad]

>>Off base because I stick up for a 14 yr old Eagle who really earned it on his own?

[Hunt]

A couple of points that might help this conversation:

1. I assume that everyone agrees that BSA could theoretically make the Eagle requirements "too easy" by standards that current Eagles and non-Eagles alike would apply.

2. Thus, the question is whether BSA in fact, has made the requirements too easy as they have changed over the years. Some people seem to think so, and they point to the existence of very young Eagles as evidence. On the other side, several people have pointed out that there were young Eagles in the past as well.

3. I think it should be clear to anyone who has observed different troops that some troops take collective steps to make it easier for boys to achieve Eagle on a fast track. These steps may not violate any rules, and thus don't require any fraudulent recordkeeping or "fooling" anybody. They are things like very organized merit badge work, 6-month POR terms, close monitoring of Scouts' advancement by adults, frequent reminders, etc. If a troop makes quick advancement a goal, it can achieve this without violating advancement requirements, but it will have a different program from a troop with different goals.

4. I think it is very difficult for a parent who is not himself involved in Scouting to effectively "push" a boy to Eagle. There are just too many things that need to be done, if the boy doesn't have the desire himself. I think it's perhaps a little more possible for a parent who is an active Scouter to "pull" his son through the process, although the son will still have to do the work.

5. I think it might help the discussion if people would specify what specific requirements they think are too lenient, too easy to falsify, or otherwise problematic. For example, you can have a sensible discussion about whether Swimming and Lifesaving should be required for all without alternatives, or (my example) whether the period of POR for Star should be longer than 4 months. It's much harder to talk in the abstract about whether a 13-year-old Eagle is "too young."

[ManyIrons]

Barry

 

Yes, because you put the weight of the blame on one group

 

Okay, Ill bite -- what blame?

 

Go back and read the post that got you upset in the first place.

 

I didnt post in that thread -- or even refer to it. Show me where I was upset. My response was an agreement with Uncleguinea.

 

[Eagledad]

>>Hey Unc, I agree wit-cha.

 

I've heard the negative comments about young Eagles and in my experience they've always come from adults who were Scouts and didn't make it.

[KoreaScouter]

Barry;

 

I'd buy what you're selling about the adults determining the lad's opportunities, except for one thing: no Scout is an indentured servant. For a buck and a piece of paper, he can transfer to another unit. I've picked up a number of them that way.

 

You know, it's funny how some of us refer to how much more challenging and difficult it was to earn Eagle in the "good old days". Suspecting this might be an adaptation of the "I walked five miles to school, uphill, each way" admonition, I checked my 9th Edition Handbook (only back to '82, but it's the oldest one I have, so 23 years back will have to be far enough for now). Except for the mix of Eagle required MBs (Safety then, PF now, for example), and a few POR titles, the requirements were EXACTLY the same. From the way some of us describe it, I was expecting to see the labors of Hercules, but no slaying the Hydra, no cleaning the Aegean stables, and so on.

 

Shifting gears a bit, here's a spin on the prom/license/car carrot some parents dangle in front of their sons. When little KS was about to cross over into our first Troop, he asked me if I would buy him a notebook computer. I replied flippantly: "Sure, when you earn Eagle Scout." I smugly thought I'd put that discussion off for the better part of a decade. Not surprisingly, when he completed the requirements, he reminded me of my promise...which of course, I had to keep.

 

KS

 

(PS: 14 years, 8 months, 2 weeks at his COH, if anyone's wondering)

[ManyIrons]

Eagledad,

 

"You think 14 year olds can be Eagles. OK, that's nice."

 

Are you suggesting they cant, or shouldnt, or am I just misinterpreting you?

 

"I was blinded by the fact that you suggest that the 97% of the scouts who didn't get eagle are to blame. Why?"

 

Where did I suggest that?

 

"The Eagle rank is not an age thing."

 

We agree. I was trying to illustrate that point with the two Scouts I mentioned. One reached Eagle at 14 and one reached it on the eve of his 18th birthday. But both of them made it because they set the goal and then achieved it.

 

"how is your program different than the one the non scouters want? What do they want you to do different?"

 

I dont have non-Scouters (or Scouters) proposing a program in my troop. I ensure we follow the BSA program.

 

[ljnrsu]

Hunt you brought up some very interesting points.

 

I'll take a bite at #5, that worm looks mighty yummy.

 

I would like to see changes made in all of the ranks leading to Eagle.

 

For Scout I would like to see the following(a)Describe the flag of the United States of America and tell its history in brief. (b) Demonstrate respect for your flag by showing how to hoist,lower,display,fold and salute it. Tell when to fly it.

 

Tenderfoot: be active in your troop,patrol and activities for at least 1 month since becoming a Scout. While a Scout,do the following(list of requirements). Or Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 2 months as a Scout.

 

Second Class: be active in your troop,patrol and activities for at least 1 month since becoming a Tenderfoot Scout. While a Tenderfoot, do the following(list of requirements). Or Be active in your troop and patrol for least 3 months as a Tenderfoot Scout.

 

First Class: be active in your troop, patrol and activities for at least 2 months since becoming a Second Class Scout. While a Second Class Scout, do the following(list of requirements). Or Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 4 months as a Second Class Scout.

 

Star and Life: While a Star/Life Scout, plan,develop, and carry out Scoutmaster approved projects in each of the following areas- (a) Church or synagogue, school, or community service. (b) Conservation/Environmental.

 

Before everybody takes out a rope to hang me let me say this. These "changes" were part the Boy Scout requirements. They can be found in the Sixth, Seventh,Eighth Editions of the Boy Scout Handbook or the Boy Scout Requirements 1968 edition.

 

As to Eagle Required MB's. I like that Cooking,Nature and Safety, which I had to earn for my Eagle(1971), have been replaced with Citizenship in the World, Communications and Personal Management. I feel that that change is for the better. It gives a more rounded out Eagle. I also like that Lifesaving and Swimming have alternative badges. I do not feel that nonswimmers should be excluded from the opportunity to earn Eagle.

 

I think that National has recognized the problems with Merit Badge requirements being to easy,to hard,outdated etc. They now seem to have a formal plan to review MB requirements on an on going basis. We have seen this with changes in Merit Badge requirements in most cases complete rewrites over the last 3 or 4 years. I know they hit me hard this year since I am a counselor for Cit Community and Cit Nation.

 

I believe that each Scout Rank is a stepping stone to the next one. You take what you have learned from one and expand on that knowledge and experience on the next one. To me the journey to a destination is more important that the destination itself.

 

(This message has been edited by ljnrsu)