To early eagle or not to early eagle

[committeechair]

In our small town we have 3 troops. One troop we call "the eagle factory" because they have parents who sit and work badges with them and get them to eagle before they reach 13. The problem is, that troop doesn't retain those Scouts! And some of those, after getting the eagle rank transfered to another troop to get the actual experience they lacked before. One dad told us if he had known before, he would have slowed his kid down.

We tell our guys that one of the most important parts of the goal is the journey itself. Don't rush it! We do not look at the book "Oh, little Johnny has been at this rank for 4 months now, time to move him up!" What has he done? Has he gone to all campouts? Did he fully master all skills? Did he get along with others (for the most part)? Some time they just need to sit back and work on it without looking at the time in the book. That is only a minimum. And too many are using that as an absolute now.

(I am advance chair now) I tell parents that in reality, not every Scout reaches Eagle. And those troops who are handing out Eagles like pinewood derby ribbons are cheapening the award for those who are really deserving.

 

[Eagledad]

>>As a matter of fact, My SM was named Doug. Pure coincidence.

[Hunt]

"One guy my age had a week to go before his 18th birthday. He had only Communications and Personal Management to go. He made an appointment with the SM who was the meritbadge counselor as well. He showed up late by 10 minutes. The SM sent him right home and would not scheduale another until he got an apology. At first my friend was so angry he was too proud to apologize and refused to do so. My SM was perfectly content letting him go without getting eagle. However, my friend, when he calmed down, realized his error, swallowed his pride in order to be accountable and made the phone call. Years later he still shares this story with the scouts and feels no resentment, rather he holds the boys to the same standard he was held to, and feels right for doing so."

 

I'm sorry, I can't help feeling that the only mistake the Scout made was not realizing what a jerk the SM was much sooner. This was a kid who had apparently done almost everything needed to become an Eagle, and the SM "sent him right home" because he was 10 minutes late? Nothing this scout had done earned him the least consideration? This is the kind of "leader" who makes my blood boil--the same kind who "fails" boys on BORs if they get confused and can't tie a knot on command. And what do they teach? They teach boys to act the same way when they are men and can enforce their power on others. In my mind, it was this SM who had no clue about the Scout Law--like Loyal, Helpful, Kind.

 

[dan]

DugNevius

Reading your post here and on other boards, I had thought that you where involved in a rogue troop. I no longer think that. I think you are in a Borg troop. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.

[SR540Beaver]

Dug,

 

I can appreciate your romanticized view of an Eagle. All the things you speak of are what the words Eagle Scout bring to mind for almost anyone. The trail to Eagle starts when a boy joins as a Scout. He moves thru the ranks by meeting requirments. If we follow the program as laid down by BSA, the boy will be exposed to all of the elements needed to reach what the BSA considers an Eagle to be. Call it a set of minimum requirements if you want, but it is what BSA considers as the standard. Remember, you can't add or take away from the requirements. While all of the personal characteristics you espouse are great, wonderful and desireable, the BSA program does not require your standards for an Eagle Scout.

 

Dug, if they fulfill the requirements, they earn Eagle. Let me relate a story of something that happened in our troop recently. The SM's son was having his BOR for 1st class. He is ADD and fairly immature. They turned him down because they didn't feel he had shown the proper amount of leadership. The boy was obviuosly upset and embaressed. The SM (who is also the district trainer) went to the committee with the Scout handbook in hand and asked them to show him the leadership requirement for 1st class. They couldn't because there isn't one. He got a second BOR a couple of weeks later and passed with flying colors because he had fulfilled each and every requirement for 1st class regardless of his immaturity. What was the issue here? We are a new and young troop and only one person on the committee had received training. They have all been trained now and have a clue how to run BOR's and know what the requirements are for each rank.

 

Dug, the traditions of your troop don't really matter. We've always done it this way and it has worked for us is not an excuse for following your own program in a scout uniform instead of the program of the BSA. Training and following the program is the correct course.

 

I had a music teacher once who disliked the saying that practice makes perfect. He said that instead, practice makes permanent. If you practice something wrong, you will do it wrong consistently. If you practice it correctly, you will do it correctly consistently. If you follow the program and advance the boys thru the ranks based on the requirements as laid down, you will end up with boys worthy of the Eagle.

[Eagledad]

Hi Dug

 

Hey, I enjoy the conversation, but I dont want to appear piling on. If this has kind of gone crazy and we need to move on, I understand. Its just Im trying to figure out if what you write are your words, or if your troop is really like you describe. One thing is for sure, your style of my way is the only way dialogue is consistent with all your post.

 

>It seems to me that you may feel that our expectations are too harsh, but i dont feel they are unrealistic at all>These things are not a part of the Scout Law or a merit badge but these are what set these 3% apart from the rest of the scouts and non scouts of their generations.

[DugNevius]

Barry, you seem to think that having Eagles be respectful, orginized, on time and the rest are both unecessary and takes away from the uniqueness of the individual, and that if every scout had all these characteristics they would all be clones. I dont see how you can think this way. Being orginized, focused, motivated doesnt take away from anything. Some scouts take MORE initiative then others. They just need to take intiative. They dont have to be anal, but they need to have some order. They dont need to be robotic, but they need to be driven.

 

By installing these qualities it does not by no means replace personality. I dont see the confusion. None of these are officially part of the scout law, but the Law is vague and open for interpretation and an argument can be made that each of these are included in either the Law or the requirements themselves: Couteous, Helpful, Kind... "Leading By example" is as important an axiom as "Be Prepared", and vital to comleting the requirment of POR. If a scout in a POR isnt Leading By Example, by being on time to events, having a plan ready and carrying it out, being accountable when making a mistake, being focused on the task at hand, taking initiative to getting things done, then the scouts in his lead are not going to be doing so as well, there is no order and therefore the scout is not LEADING.

 

Let me make this clear, i, the current scoutmaster, any other assistant scoutmaster, or my scoutmaster from the past have not had a scout finish every requirment and held the kid back because he was not one of these things. It just is that by the time every Eagle since 1989 have been all of these things, because it was expected of us as we grew older, got closer to eagle and took on leadership positions. There were times when some of us were late in the 8 years of scouting, times were we didnt take initiative, but developed through time we all became them. 16 eagle scouts since i joined scouting, all these things, but none clones of our Scoutmasters, all very different guys.

 

Not every troop is as demanding and that doesnt mean that their eagles are not as qualified. Sometimes however, just the minimum requirments doesnt really produce the same result. For instance, Reading BurnsCrewAdvisors post about that young by, i dont see any initiative at all, i see a father pushing his scout and the boy gaining nothing from it. I dont see how a 9 year old boy can put together an Eagle Project before he even joins a scout troop. That is a father doing half the work. ComitteeChair seems to see a similar thing, as do a few others. I remember a scout in a nearby troop that had every meritbadge he needed to for eagle at 12, but it just so happens his father, the SM was the one who signed off nearly all of them. Not my troop, not my concern, but maybe the bar needs to be officaly raised here.

 

Hunt, i can undertstand the SMs reaction being to harsh if the boy was say 12, but 10 days shy of 18 is a bit different. The scout, my friend and Assistant for 5 years had waited only a week until his birthday to get these merit badges. It is the responsability of the scouts to earn them, not he adult leaders or parents and that includes making the appointment for the merit badges and being courteous of the counselors' time. The scout needs the counsler, not the other way around. If it were important to the scout (my friend) he a) would not wait till the last second and b) not have been late to the meeting with at least a call to heads up. I dont think the SM did anything wrong in seeking the respect of the scout, neither did the scouts parents or the scout (after he had calmed down)

 

lastly, Lead By example. I do everything in my power to be and do these things i am talking about, as do the SM, ASM and Comittee members, past and present. It is not asking too much at all, to expect that the boys do so in return. Otherwise they are not being respectful, and therefore courteous.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Dug,

 

Scouts and orderly should never be used in the same sentence! I'm half kidding when I say that. From your description, you expect a newly elected leader to be the next Donald Trump. Trump has had a life time to develop his management abilities. Scouting is in the business of teaching leadership skills. It is on the job training. Most boys have never had to do long term planning, write agendas, run a meeting, do conflict resolution, etc. UNTIL they get elected to a POR. To expect them to step into the job and do a bang up job from day one just isn't reasonable or realistic. Our job is to teach these skills. Some of it is learned by doing requirements, being active in your patrol, etc. Much of it is learned when you step into the job. Note that the POR requirement uses the word "active" intead of "successful". The reason for that is they don't measure the requirement on how good of a job you did, but at how hard you worked at it. You are to grow in the POR, not walk into it ready to take over the world.

 

If we penalized every boy who shows up late, we wouldn't have a troop. I realize the expectations of a 17 year old are different than that of a 12 year old. We have one boy that IF he shows up, it is always about 20 to 30 minutes late. It is out of his control, it all depends on when his grandfather gets him there. I'd rather have him there for an hour of an hour and half than not at all. You never mentioned if the MB/SM asked for a reason for the scout being late. What if he was rushing from a job or sports practice? What if he was held up at a train crossing? There are valid reasons people are late. It is not always because they are lazy or irresponsible.

 

Dug, I say this with all due respect and mean absolutely no offense. I know you are young and if I recall correctly, you have not had a lot of training. There are many people here who have been scouts as boys but who have actually been scouters longer than they were scouts. They have a vast amount of experience. Instead of constantly arguing that you have it all figured out and you provide a superior program by the things you've added, you might want to take heed of the advice offered. Trust me, the older us guys get, the more we realize there is always more to learn. Age is a humbling experience. But that is a good thing.

[Hunt]

"The scout needs the counsler, not the other way around. If it were important to the scout (my friend) he a) would not wait till the last second and b) not have been late to the meeting with at least a call to heads up. I dont think the SM did anything wrong in seeking the respect of the scout, neither did the scouts parents or the scout (after he had calmed down)."

 

Sorry, I don't buy it, and to me it exemplifies an attitude that I think has no place in a Scout leader: how dare you be late to meet with ME! That shows disrespect to ME! Go straight home until you're ready to crawl back and apologize to ME! I mean really--a heads-up call for 10 minutes late? I wouldn't react to anybody being 10 minutes late for just about anything, unless it was the very last straw from a person who had done many bothersome things.

 

[DugNevius]

Beaver, I never said scouts will be perfect the minute they get into a POR. That is why an Adult, secificly an ASM should work as an advisor to the scouts in a POR particularly to help develop the leaders. However, if you set a standard you will find that the boys will work to achieve it. Also, By Leading By Example the leaders show the younger scouts these skills are important and they KNOW that they need to be on time for trips, orginized for meetings, accountable for their actions. 6 times a year we meet with our boys in POR and have open ended evaluations to talk about the things they are doing well and the areas they need to approve. We dont sit back an hope that they will gain these things but be content if they never do. While you may think we are "a rogue unit" or too harsh, i similarly can get the impression that you are complacement. Im not saying you are.

 

"If we penalized every boy who shows up late, we wouldn't have a troop. I realize the expectations of a 17 year old are different than that of a 12 year old. We have one boy that IF he shows up, it is always about 20 to 30 minutes late. It is out of his control, it all depends on when his grandfather gets him there. I'd rather have him there for an hour of an hour and half than not at all. You never mentioned if the MB/SM asked for a reason for the scout being late. What if he was rushing from a job or sports practice? What if he was held up at a train crossing? There are valid reasons people are late. It is not always because they are lazy or irresponsible."

 

There ARE valid reasons to be late, HOWEVER all a person needs to do is to call ahead and let those waiting know that they will be late. Its simple courteousy. A scout is courteous. "Hey, I am running a bit late." Thats all it takes.

 

I have to ask you, if the boy is always late because he relies on his grandfather why hasnt anyone offered a car pool so that he can get there on time? I have a scout who lives with his grandparents, and they are always MIA, so for every event on the calander another scout's father picks him up and drops him off. Plan ahead, be orginized.

 

And my age hasnt a thing to do with anything.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Dug: And my age hasnt a thing to do with anything.

 

Then one could assume you have no objections to Eagle early.....but you do. You seem to want to apply your own standards to what makes an Eagle over and above the BSA standard. You believe the experience a boy gains between the age of 14 and 18 to be integral to becoming an Eagle. How then can you take exception to the suggestion that it would be wise to accept the counsel of people who have been trained scouters longer than you have been alive?

[DugNevius]

well, 2 reasons Beav. First, the age of boys we are talking about are the very growth ages of boys: 12-18. Im almost 27. My scoutmaster, who took over in 1991 was 22 and in 10 years: 3 high adventure trips, increased the size of the troop by 3 times, and 3 high adventure trips. Secondly, I am merely continuing the program and aim in which my scoutmaster did before me for 10 years and what his did for 37, changing very little. We are having loads of success. I have found no trouble in expecting them to meet the standards achieved by the many Eagles in our troops history, not being complacent about whether or not our Eagles live the by scout Oath and Law, always lead by example and are leaders of their generation. Since we are not having any issues with these i am perfectly content with the direction in which we are going, but when i do have questions, ill be happy to ask away to those "old goats" who have been trained scouters for longer then i have been alive. You are a young troop, i wish you all nothing but success in forging your own history, tradition and the standards in which you measure your Eagles.

[SR540Beaver]

Ahhhh, I remember 27! Get back to me when you are 48.

 

I admire and respect your dedication. Keep up the good work!

[Greying Beaver]

Four youngsters who pushed each other all the way to Eagle? I saw it happen in our troop about three years ago. Six of the seven boys in their patrol made Eagle. They had been together since Tigers. Want to keep these boys active in the troop? Try this: whisper in their ears about Eagle Palms. Five more MB's and they pin a bronze palm device onto their Eagle medal. Check in the back of the Handbook. Then stand back and watch the feathers fly. Oh, yeah, five more MB's and the gold palm is awarded; five more and the silver palm is awarded; five more after that, a bronze palm is added to the silver, and so on. Currently there are 118 MB's. That can tranlate to a total 6 silver palms, a bronze palm, and change to spare.

[Lynda J]

Kevin is currently Star and working on Life.

He is 12. He want Eagle by 16. Made a banner and hung it on the wall that says

"16 = EAGLE". He doesn't want to make Eagle before that because he wants to be JASM and has to be 16 to do that. THen he said he has 2 years to earn Palms. Plus he said he wants to have fun making eagle.

 

I agree Eagle is much more than the patch on the shirt. And leadership ability and maturity is all part of that. To me 16 is perfect. Young enough to understand and old enough to understand.