To early eagle or not to early eagle

[Eagledad]

>>Lets say a 1st class scout needs only 6 months leadership. .... After 6 months his term is over. Does he advance?

[DugNevius]

Well, Barry im going to disagree with you. A scout does not advance if he doesnt meet the requirements. If a scout does not meet the responsibilities of an elected position he did not complete the requirement. Leadership, or "POR" cant be mailed in. They should know before hand what duties each position entails and they should be expected to maintain them. One major part of leadership, in life, and in scouting, is to lead by example. If a scout in a position such as Patrol leader isnt doing so, he isnt leading. If he is not leading hes not meeting his responsibilities. A scout in the scenario I made did not, by any stretch, meet his responsibilities.

 

You are correct when you say we need to guide our boys when they are in leadership positions. This means we inform them of what they need to do, advice on how best to do it and then evaluate the job they have done. Not much more then that. Any much more, we are doing their job for them.

 

For instance, advancement. A patrol leader needs to advance the boys in his patrol, by teaching them the skills they need for the lower ranks. He can do this during the weekly meetings but also at a monthly patrol meeting that he puts together. The SPL can try to motivate him to do so, by asking him if hes put together any patrol meetings and keeping track of rank advancement, but he can not force the PL to do anything and if he is arranging a Patrol meeting, or teaching scouts, hes doing the PL's job.

 

I think we can all agree, kids dont always do what needs to be done, if their 12 or if their 17. No PL is every perfect, but sometimes a PL here or there just isnt up to the task.

 

I dont think a SM has to put an age limit, or to actually say to a scout hes not ready. The program can do that. Leadership (POR) does that.

 

In a free election program the scouts vote for the PLs and SPL. We can debate whether or not patrols should be together forever or if they should be rearranged, but thats not all that important, but if the Troop holds democratic elections, where candidates run against each other for the positions and scouts vote based on qualifications such as past experience, scout skills, scout spirit and character (accountability, initiative, creativity, fairness- all parts of leadership character and scouts ARE aware of these qualities!) then the scouts are forced to develop these and establish themselves as qualified. Until they do, their peers dont elect them to lead.

 

Most often, scouts that dont have character initially have to wait a while to get elected. Kids mature at different ages. This, coupled with strong competition for few positions does two things, A)it pushes the age of Eagle candidates up because of the time needed to establish ability to lead and B) provides that for the majority of the time those that DO get elected will be able to handle the position.

 

For instance, in our troop we have 4 scout patrols and one senior patrol. At our last election 11 scouts ran for 4 spots. Only the four who most established themselves as leaders got the position. One patrol leader is a sophomore. Until this September he was a troubled scout who was stuck at 1st class because of his attitude towards others prevented him from ever winning an election. Over the summer something clicked, he got his head on and has been a model scout. Therefore he won an election last January.

 

As I said, unless a troop is new, I dont see how an 11 year old can be a patrol leader, if hes only had one summer at camp and a dozen or fewer trips under his belt. If every lad in his troop is 11 or younger then he would be as qualified as any, but in a troop that has been around for a while he simply doesnt have the experience to hold the position. Of course, live shows that there is always an exception to any rule, but ive never encountered any scout in our troop 11 or 12 ready for the job. Our PL tend to be around 8th-9th graders.

 

Character is established simply by example. Lead By example should be the credo of any leader. While their are specific requirements on paper, when I think of an eagle scout I dont think of 21 merit badges and an Eagle Project, I think of a man who is accountable, always on time, organized, takes initiative, creative, patient, focused, assertive and fair. None of these things are specifically under the guidelines of the Scout oath and Law, and a youth can complete every requirement in the book and never have any of these traits, but a true Eagle does. Every Eagle from our troop that I ever encountered was all of these things. That tells me that the standard is not too high to achieve and yet high enough to hold to all those who seek to join them. I remember, as a scout, I was conditioned by my scoutmaster that if you were right on time you were late. If, as a PL I was told to be at, say a meeting at 7pm, I had better be in the door at least 5 minutes early. If I was 10 minutes early to anything, I was still there after him and the other eagle ASMs. My friend was going for a merit badge- Citizenship of something, and was to be there at 6:30. He showed up at 6:35. He was sent home. The next time, a week later, he was there at 6:20. If a 1st class scout forgot something, like rain gear, the older scouts would say "Be prepared" and the scout would get wet. Now if a Life scout forgot raingear... oh boy.

 

According to the official requirements it does not state anywhere that a scout must be punctual. That said I dont see how any scout can get eagle and not be. They will be conditioned to be, as all the other mentioned qualities. When I hold a meeting with a scout for a merit badge, scoutmaster conference of greenbar (PLC) and hes late he gets sent home and it doesnt get done. When I see lack of accountability in a scout I call him on it. the other Scoutmasters and I expect a level of maturity for Eagle scouts that only come with conditioning. Conditioning takes time. I dont think, excluding a very small minority, that scouts can get there in 3 years.

 

[BurnsCrew440Advisor]

The troop my son is in has a young man who bridged over with the Webelos after getting their AOL.He was in 1st year patrol and the patrol leader. His dad who was a ASM told him that he got Eagle by the time he was 13 he'd take him to World Jamboree.

He went to summer camp and got some of his merit badges last summer 3 months ago he turned 12. Last week he has his BOR for Life.At his SMC the SM ( who also does the Eagle support) told him (with his Dad and the Advancement chair--me )present that he is not to do a Eagle project until he turns 13 and to enjoy being a Scout instead of running thru the ranks. The boy and his dad already have a project picked and planned out.They have had it since he was a Webelo.

 

It is my opinion that a young man at 12 or 13 has not had the opportunity to enjoy the Scouting experience if he is busy rushing thru the rank system.

[DugNevius]

sounds like its the father earning the ranks, to me.

[ehcalum]

One of the things I've noticed in many Troops, both the one I was in as a youth, the one I was a commitee member in during college and the one I work with now, is how much the parents influence the scout. from observing there seem to be 4 different types of Scout/Parent relationships: Parent active in troop and excessivly pushing the scout to advance and not giving the scout time to have fun or really learn, Parents active in the troop yet let the boy do his own thing at his own pace, but guide the boy, parents not active in the troop who let the boy do his own thing and guide him, and finally parents not active in the troop who overly push the kid to earn ranks ect. I've also noticed the driving and pushing is more common with Eagle Legacy families than those of which the boy is the sole Eagle (such as myself).

 

We need to remember that this is a Boys Program and we should be in it for the youth. We are their mentors and perhaps role models. A boy should be allowed to advance at his own pace and if he doesn't want to make Eagle or if he rushes through the ranks then so be it. Just remember, its HIS program and those who are excessivly pushed and driven by their parents are less likely to be true Eagles, and scouts in general, than thouse who guide and work the program themselves.

[Eagledad]

>>According to the official requirements it does not state anywhere that a scout must be punctual. That said I dont see how any scout can get eagle and not be.

[DugNevius]

Hi Barry,

 

I enjoy discussing things like this with you.

 

About the "Traits of an Eagle" ive been talking about, Accountability, Initiative, Organization, Punctuality, Creativity, Self Reliance, Leading By Example, Focus, Assertiveness, Patience, Reliability, Patience and Humor- None of these are literally part of the Scout Oath and Law but I, the other adult leaders past and present of our troop all feel and felt they were vital characteristics of an Eagle scout. Do you feel any of these are not important and why? Do you feel any of these are not achievable by every youth and why?

 

Ill answer my own questions. Each one is vital to the core of what the rank of Eagle should represent to the world. If a youth is not any of these at all, he is not an eagle at heart. A youth can earn every merit badge and tie every knot and get through 16 months of leadership and not have a shred of Patience, or initiative, or Accountability, etc... On paper he has done what it takes to get eagle but in his heart and mind, where it matters most, hes has not. After all, its more important in the long run, that an Eagle, a boy built to lead others, is accountable rather then he can tie a Bowline.

 

Each one of these can be achieved by any youth. Its not to harsh to expect punctuality or initiative or focus Im not asking too much. It just takes time. 3 years is not enough time. Anyone can be all these things and I dont feel it turns kids into clones. I am not the same as my scoutmaster at all, hes a Conservative Reganite, and I of course am far from. We have all kinds of Eagles in our troop, hippies, jocks, scholars, all vastly different, but one thing we all have in common is we all became Eagles through the program, through the same set of standards and therefore possess the "traits" to individual degrees. This uniformity coupled with the diversity of our personalities lends for an interesting but close group. After an Eagle court of Honor where many of the Eagle Alumni return, we all go out to a local bar, have a few beers, tell a few stories and laugh at a few bad jokes. Last summer we ended up going back to my old SMs house and making it an all nighter. In life we are all different, with different lifestyles, pursuits and accomplishments, but scouting has made us a Band of Brothers; a fraternity. Its not arrogance, its pride. The path to eagle made us who we are, even if we were different to begin with we have one thing in common, that we got trough something that was not easy, 21 merit badges, 16 months or more leadership, an Eagle project, at least one High adventure trip and a standard of character that was set high.

 

I love this stuff too.

[OldGreyEagle]

Dug, a scout in your Troop HAS to go on a High Advanture trip to make Eagle?

[DugNevius]

no, not at all. Sorry. It just so happens that every one of the Eagles of the past 12 years has done at least one, some two. By no meanis is it a requirment. High adventure trips are something in our program that we try to incorporate enough so that every scout has the chance to go on at least one if not two if he were so inclined. sorry for any confusion.

[Eagledad]

Hi Dug

 

>>On paper he has done what it takes to get eagle but in his heart and mind, where it matters most, hes has not.

[DugNevius]

Well Barry thats a simple answer for me.

 

The second requirment of the Rank of Eagle is Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life. One component of the scout law is to be Curtious. By a scout being constantly late he is not being respectful of other peoples time and therefore not being very curtious. He also is failing to lead by example.

 

One guy my age had a week to go before his 18th birthday. He had only Communications and Personal Management to go. He made an appointment with the SM who was the meritbadge counselor as well. He showed up late by 10 minutes. The SM sent him right home and would not scheduale another until he got an apology. At first my friend was so angry he was too proud to apologize and refused to do so. My SM was perfectly content letting him go without getting eagle. However, my friend, when he calmed down, realized his error, swallowed his pride in order to be accountable and made the phone call. Years later he still shares this story with the scouts and feels no resentment, rather he holds the boys to the same standard he was held to, and feels right for doing so.

[Eagledad]

And you don't think your troop is a Dug factory?

 

For me, scouting is an experience to learn the habits a man needs to develop character, it seems that your troop uses the scouting experience to prove you already have character. There are no minimum or maximum requirements for Eagle are there? There is only the one Dug set. Appears that a person of lesser skills or abilities has no chance. Could a retarded person have any hope in your troop?

 

Oh, are you guys located in Colorado?

 

Have a great scouting day.

 

Barry

[DugNevius]

No,Barry, NJ. I dont see why a mentally challanged youth could not survive in our troop. No i do not think we are a Dug Factory at all. I have not set any standards rather continue to live and lead by the standards that have been a part of our program for decades. I guess you and I disagree on what an Eagle scout is. I am not saying Eagle scouts are flawless, they are human as anyone, but repecting others and leading example are a big part of what our troop believes an Eagle should be. A scout that is never on time is not doing either and not living the scout law. A boy can be in scouts and never be accountable, respectable, motivated, etc... Thats fine. He can still benifit from the program, go on the trips and activities, but hes not an eagle. An eagle is something more. These arent abilities like singing or sculpting, they are life skills that every boy can learn, if they so chose to.

 

Every boy has the potential to be an Eagle, but not every boy will be one.

[Eagledad]

>>I guess you and I disagree on what an Eagle scout is.

[DugNevius]

As a matter of fact, My SM was named Doug. Pure coincidence.

 

It seems to me that you may feel that our expectations are too harsh, but i dont feel they are unrealistic at all. I never knew of any parent that believed the standards in which their son was pressed to meet for Eagle were to hard at all and I dont hear that from the parents today.

 

Eagle isnt just the next rank after life, the 7th rank. Its something more then that, it represents the very pinnacle of the youth in the BSA program, the best of the best. While Boy Scouts prepares boy to succeed in life, Eagle scouts are built to excel beyond their peers. When an Eagle scout applies to a job or school or group and he writes down Eagle on the application, that is not to show that the Eagle can tie knots blindfolded but rather has these things im speaking of.

 

An Eagle is not flawless and makes mistakes, but he is ACCOUNTABLE for the mistakes he makes and owns up to them. When an Eagle COMMITS to something he sticks to it no matter if something more desirable temps him, his priorities are in order. An Eagle takes INITATIVE when things need to get done, he doesnt wait for someone to tell him what to do. An Eagle is PUNCTUAL because he is courteous of other people's time and respectful of those he plans on meeting. An Eagle is ASSERTIVE; he speaks his mind and lets others know what needs to get done, without being bossy or rude. An Eagle is FOCUSED; he doesnt waste his or other peoples time needlessly. An Eagle is MOTIVATED, he sets goals and he strives to accomplish them until he does so. An Eagle is CREATIVE, he has the ability to improvise when needed, and hes not a robot. An Eagle is ORGINIZED; he prepares ahead of time and carries out his plan. An Eagle is a LEADER, he guides a team or group to success, and when they succeed he allows the team to take the credit and when the fail he solely takes the blame. An Eagle LEADS BY EXAMPLE, because he can not expect others to do what he himself does not. These things are not a part of the Scout Law or a merit badge but these are what set these 3% apart from the rest of the scouts and non scouts of their generations. None of these take away from the youth's identity and personality. Every one of these can be achieved by anyone, mentally challenged or not. This is what we should strive to instill on our boys as they try to become Eagles. An Eagle can not be an Eagle and not be any of these things, or else hes simply an Eagle on paper. One Eagle may be much more organized then another or much more creative, but they all possess levels of these and other traits.

 

We arent setting actions instead of behaviors by expecting those boys that strive to be eagle to be these things. Its no different then when they are learning to tie a knot. When they get the knot wrong you let them know and explain how to do it right. If they get it wrong again you let them know and explain again. And again, and again, sometimes in different ways, until they get it right and they know the knot so well they can tie it blind folded. Punctuality, accountability, organization or any of those things are no different. These things are not restricted against any boy whether he is mentally challenged, handicapped in any other way or perfectly normal. If a 13 year old has all of these qualities then he is ready to be an Eagle. But those 13 year olds are very rare.