Eagle COH: "Commencement" or "Graduation"?

[KoreaScouter]

Your thoughts & experiences please.

 

Scout earns his Eagle, then makes himself scarce. I mean, "put his picture on a milk carton" scarce. I've seen this twice now, in two different units. Two random events, or is this more common than I thought?

 

I think we collectively do a pretty good job in our Eagle COH ceremonies of characterizing the Eagle rank as a "commencement" (...you are a marked man, etc...). Yet, in these two cases I've witnessed firsthand, the lads see it as a "graduation" (...I'm done and it's time to do something else...or nothing else...). In my SM conferences, I try to paint Eagle as an important, but intermediate goal in what I hope will be a lifetime of Scouting for them. Obviously, my hope in doing so is that they won't "unplug" after their Eagle COH. In most cases, it's worked. It's the exceptions that have me wondering.

 

I'm leaving out the "deathbed Eagles" who complete their BOR a week before their 18th birthday -- they're gone no matter what. I'm talking about the Scouts who have a good 2-3 years left after they earn their Eagle.

 

Have you seen this phenomena? How prevalent in your experience? Does this reflect more on the Scout, or on the unit? What more can we do to prevent it? Is it at least partially inevitable, given other pressures such as grades, SATs, the "fumes"?

 

KS

[ManyIrons]

KS,

 

I wish we had your problem, i.e., Eagle Scouts with a good 2-3 years left. To date, all of ours have been of the deathbed variety (Haliaeetus leucocephalus mortalitas cubile). All, except one, are rarely ever heard from again.

 

It certainly can be a reflection of the unit, or its leader -- weve lost a few to the poor behavior of some former SMs. All the Scouts were close to aging-out, but it still means we lost potential assistant SMs. However; in my experience you normally need look no further than the folks who have been driving the Scouts to the meetings. When Mom and Dad treat Scouting as simply college application fodder its tough to overcome.

 

My tenure as SM only began 6 months ago, but like you I try to get the Scouts to understand its a journey not a destination. I take every opportunity to stress the concept of brotherhood and helping those who follow behind you. I wont know how well Im doing for another couple of years. Ive got a great bunch of 1st year Scouts that all want to be the youngest Eagles in the troop. At the moment they cant wait to start showing the new guys the ropes. Time will tell. Wish me luck.

 

[DugNevius]

It depends on the scout and the program, i think. For us many of our eagle scouts remain active in the troop. I myself am one, my scoutmaster was an eaglescout from the troop as was his assistants, and of our last 3 eagles in 2004, 2 are now assistants and are going to Philmont as adult advisors the was myself and the other two eagles with me did in 1998 and 2000. Those that dont take a formal role still stop by from time to time. The program has to interest the kids as well as the SM and the Eagle BOR committee should impress upon the canidate that getting eagle is not the end but really the beginning, and that as Eagles they really should give back to everything that gave to them, scouting school, family and friends, the church and so on.

[Trevorum]

I've found that by the time of an Eagle SM conference I can pretty accurately predict which scouts will be active after their Eagle CoH.

 

Scouts who are focused on the Eagle to please their parents or because it will "look good" on a college application tend to drift off pretty soon. Those that are still actively working with the younger scouts and who already have their sights set on next years high adventure program will stick around.

[dsteele]

I think I have a perspective that's a little different from what I've seen so far in this thread.

 

I've mentioned that I was a young eagle. I did stay active with my troop, but there wasn't much left to do. The OA and being a member (briefly) of an Indian Dance Explorer Post captured more of my attention.

 

I really don't blame a young man who has earned Eagle for tapering off his activities with the troop. I view Eagle Scouts as a time capsule -- especially when you consider the stuff already mentioned -- the charge, the oath, the obligation to give back -- which is thoroughly indoctrinated if we've done our jobs correctly.

 

That stuff, like the infusion of the Scout Oath and Law is much like my 401 (K). I know its there, I know it's going to pay off . . . and I know it's going to take a while before I see it.

 

Wait until that Eagle gets to be about 30 years old and has a family before judging whether he's actually "left" scouting or not.

 

If it appears at that time that he has left, it's time to ask him to begin to repay the debt.

 

Unc.

[DugNevius]

I think you hit it on the head. "I did stay active with my troop, but there wasn't much left to do." Advancement gives scouts goals to reach but after Eagle its a little more difficult to see goals to strive for. There are ony so many times you can go to the same summer camp, the same weekend hikes the same Jamborees... Do something different, do something big. Go to Philmont New Mexico, go to the Northern Tier base, or the Florida Sea base, or just build a unique trek of your own. Dont be too routine.

[anarchist]

ahh the problems of young eagles...

Love the term deathbed eagles!

would rather have active, 17 year old 'death bed' heading scouts in our program tah watch the 'ticket puncher', 'paper eagle' blow through the program and leave at 141/2...

 

the question to ask a boy when he starts really working on Eagle, is Why he wants to be an Eagle...look him in the eyes when you do it...I usually see panic (think deer in the headlights) or wheels turning (think- "now, what does this guy want me to say") rarely do I hear, "its something I've had my sites set on for a while now and I think the effort will make me a better scout and a better person..."

 

Those that get it a go...were/are only thinking of themselves and the immediate future. Rarely is a young eagle mature enough to realty appreciate the "why" of doing something the rest of us hold in such high esteem....

 

Eagles out there! Go to a mirror and look for the boy who earned that eagle... What was on his mind at 14, 15, 16, 17 towards the thought of 'giving back'? Think hard and honest...at those ages, we usually think in the short term...finish something and move on...perhaps thats what most young Eagles still think... Perhaps in the future Scouting will rise up and smack him in the face (the usual wake up call is having a Cub Scout aged boy in the family)Perhaps not...our job is to do our best...more more no less.

thats why I'd rather have the death bed Eagles (LOVE THAT TERM)than the younger lads....

 

BUT I think the entire "Life to Eagle" process needs to be rethought in terms of retention (theres that "R" word again!)

[EagleInKY]

I hadn't heard the "deathbed Eagle" term before either. I agree that I'd rather have a bunch of deathbed Eagles than a bunch of 14 year old Eagles that disappear just when they are at the perfect age to lead the troop.

 

Back in my day, most of the guys made Eagle around 16. If they were 16, mature, and shown good leadership, they were almost always made JASM. This was a big deal to us. Suddenly we had an "pseudo-adult" patch on our shirts. We got to eat with the adults on campouts. We started doing things that ASMs would normally do. It was cool. At 16-17 you are wanting to be treated like an adult, and our troop did everything they could to make it feel that way.

 

Now, before you over-react. No, we couldn't drive to an outing. Back then we could tent with adults, but that would be a no-no now. What you can do though is partner them with an ASM and let them share duties. A lot of boys would really enjoy that and would appreciate the additional amount of responsibility and respect.

[dsteele]

I'm trying to not get my hackles up. I hope anarchist's comments weren't pointed in my direction:

 

"ahh the problems of young eagles...

Love the term deathbed eagles!

would rather have active, 17 year old 'death bed' heading scouts in our program tah watch the 'ticket puncher', 'paper eagle' blow through the program and leave at 141/2... "

 

Ticket puncher -- okay, I can live with that. I certainly did aim to achieve each rank according to my personal time-table . . . which happened to coincide with the time required more than the actual work.

 

Paper Eagle -- that one bothers me. Not because it's true (it isn't,) but because there is absolutely no way anyone could know or say that about a person unless they knew him personally. You don't know me. As a secondary point, if you do know a "paper Eagle" and do/say nothing about it, don't you share the guilt?

 

Now, as to leaving the program ... I never did.

 

What I meant by my post was simply this -- I have observed several new posters here say that they left Scouting at some point in time and are getting re-involved now that they have sons in the program. They are often new Assistant leaders, Unit leaders, etc.

 

Contributions to Scouting are not limited to the Troop. An Eagle Scout is an Eagle Scout regardless of his age at the time of the Board of Review.

 

Which is more valuable to Scouting? The young man who earns Eagle at 16 (I won't even get started on the "perfect age" thing) who continues to show up to weekly meetings and attend troop outings . . . and is heard from no more once he turns 18?

 

Or the 16 year old Eagle Scout who goes on to other things, but once he turns 30 or so and is asked, writes a check to his council Friends of Scouting for support of one Scout every year until he retires at age 65?

 

There's no right answer to that question -- we need both.

 

Unc.

 

[DugNevius]

>>I hadn't heard the "deathbed Eagle" term before either. I agree that I'd rather have a bunch of deathbed Eagles than a bunch of 14 year old Eagles that disappear just when they are at the perfect age to lead the troop.

 

Back in my day, most of the guys made Eagle around 16. If they were 16, mature, and shown good leadership, they were almost always made JASM. This was a big deal to us. Suddenly we had an "pseudo-adult" patch on our shirts. We got to eat with the adults on campouts. We started doing things that ASMs would normally do. It was cool. At 16-17 you are wanting to be treated like an adult, and our troop did everything they could to make it feel that way.

 

 

Maybe we need to ask the question, is a 14 year old an eagle scout? Does age factor?

[KoreaScouter]

Thanks for all your perspectives. I'd like to share a couple of my own.

 

First, regarding "deathbed Eagles" vs. younger Eagles. From what I've seen, the majority of the "deathbed Eagles" aren't where they are because they deliberately planned it that way. Does anyone honestly think that an adolescent boy reasons, privately or publicly, that he's going to wait to finish his Eagle requirements until he's nearly 18 because he thinks he'll be more mature, responsible, and better understand the concept of "giving back"? Please. Most of them got distracted by sports, girls, work, or peer pressure. Or, their motivation slipped, or the project seemed too big an obstacle. Or, they didn't have the family support they needed or their family circumstances changed, or they transferred to or from a weak unit. There's others, but the point is, boys don't consciously choose to race the clock...it just happens that way. And, if you ask them after the fact, and they're being frank with you, they will tell you that if they could go back and do it again, they would have done it differently and earned their Eagle sooner. That's what they've told me, anyway.

 

Second, the requirements are the requirements. Every boy is different, with different motivations, goals, interests. I don't question their motives or audit how they get where they are. In the same sense I don't brush off the 17-year old Life Scout who comes back after a layoff or after a couple years of "mailing it in", I don't accuse the Scout who earned his Eagle in four years instead of seven, of completing the "Cliff's Notes" version of the requirements. Nor do I attribute more or less virtue to one or the other. I mean, think about that for a moment. If you believe a boy can scam his way to Eagle, you're saying he successfully pulled the wool over the eyes of at least 21 MB counselors, at least one Scoutmaster, committee members, multiple BORs, the District Advancement chair, whoever he did his project for, etc., etc. Any adolescent boy who can pull that off deserves some recognition. I know I could never get away with it!

 

One thing you've reminded me of is that we need to take the long view here. The notion of "giving back" can mean next week, next year, or, perhaps, in ways that are not overt or immediate, but reflected in a life well led. Is that a bad thing?

 

KS

 

 

 

 

[dsteele]

Korea:

 

As usual, an excellent, even-tempered post. You conveyed everything I typed last night, only yours was done in a scout-like manner. The re-reading I did of the post I wrote on this topic caused me to hit the "back" button and not say anything.

 

Thank you.

 

Unc.

[Eagledad]

Hi all

 

Good subject, but as I read the replys, I can't help but feel we are mixed up here. Does the Eagle make the program, or does the program make the Eagle? I think if we could tour the program EagleInKy is talking about, we would find the answer there.

 

I believe a program must appeal and challenge all ages, even the adults. The hardest part of that is the 14 to 17 year old range because that is when a boy becomes a man. Most (90%) of troops still hold those guys down to the boy side of the program even while their body and brain wants to be a man.

 

I remember once one of our older scouts was angry at his dad because the dad wanted his son to find a different job that allowed him to attend the whole Troop meeting. Then the son hit the nail on the head. Talking to his dad, he said, "no adult would think twice if you showed up to a meeting late because of your work. But you and those same adults want me to change my job. It is not enough that I give 45 minutes of my time?".

 

Where do we stand with that scout?

 

A troop that averages Eagles at 16 likely has a very mature older boy program because more than half of those scouts were 17 when they got Eagle. But even more important, I'll bet that for most of them, the Eagle was not the highlight of their scouting Experience. I know that is the case in our Troop.

 

Maybe the discussion should turn to "what would make a 17 year old scout want to stay with the troop?"

 

Sometimes I really enjoy reading your post KS. Good job.

 

Barry

[anarchist]

Gosh UncleG, if I stepped on your toes I didn't mean it...sorry! What I tried to do, was draw a point that the many "don't add -don't subtract requirements crowd" are constantly driving home...if a boy gets his ticket punched you can't stop him from being an Eagle even if it means he was a Paper Eagle.

 

And sorry but I do not buy the statement that the young lad can't scam his way to the eagle...I see boys, every day, manipulate adults left and right...its part of growing up in America (ask the advertizing council or wall street) and remember...frankly its not my job to add or subtract...or to object if I think he is a 'paper eagle'...nor do I share any guilt...if there is any guilt to share..Remember too, if the boy goes through the motions and gets his ticket punched (NO WHERE, IN ANY REQUIREMENT DOES IT SAY HE HAS TO BE DOING IT FOR THE "RIGHT REASONS") look it up and tell me I am wrong. WE HOPE and pray that he learns along the way what the right reasons are...but for now "cause dad wants me to" or it looks good on my Naval Academy application work as well as any for REAL reasons/motivation (note:not necessarily true reasons)...

 

And finally Uncle, I took KS's original post as remarking on a phenomena he was seeing in his troop and I was replying based on my experience in my troop and district...as to what I saw and what I would prefer in our(-MY) program...I was not commenting on your Eagle effort- frankly, none of my business...In the end, I would love to see Eagles stay 'til they age out (preferably in very old age, in a rocking chair...sipping camp coffee...)

nuff said.

[OldGreyEagle]

If a scout joins a troop at age 10 years and 6 months, and it takes him 17 months to earn Eagle.(17 months is the minimum time), then he is an Eagle scout at 12 years and 1 month. Is he a paper Eagle? I dont know, it depends on the program that signed off he requirements. I think the focus should be on the "deathbed Eagles" actually. The ones who get the paper work in to Council as the sun is setting on the 17th year 364th day of his life. I wonder if more corners were cut for him that any "too young" Eagle. Scouts earn ranks because adults who oversee the program allow them. Advancement is at the motivation of the scout. Artifical barriers are wrong, as is providing "breaks" for a deathbed care(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)