MB vs Rank Sign Off

[EagleInKY]

2CD stole my thunder. I approached it the same way. If I'm working with a group on a requirement, and they each satisify it, then I'll sign my son along with them. If he does something on his own, I would try to get another adult or appropriate boy leader to do it.

[arichardson71]

I have not seen anything in "Boy Scout" Literature but I have read somewhere in "Cub Scout" literature that double dipping was not allowed. This was given in the case of the requirment being similiar from say an Achievement and a Sports or Academic pin or belt loop.

 

I am with most others here, if the boy has truely done the requirement for the MB then he should have no problem (even if he has to refresh himself) with retesting for the rank requirement. I am a ASM for NSP in our Troop and I require the boys to do what is required of them, they always feel better about themselves after they have PROVED that they can do it as opposed to learning that they can skate by if they do not have to prove it.

 

Sometimes as a Cubmaster I will test (so to speak) the boys getting Bobcat or another rank just to see if they did the requirements. This is for my benefit just to see if the Parents or Den Leaders are "pencil whipping" the achievements. If they "fail" I don't withhold the badge from the scout, but I do start talking with the DL to verify that they are checking the boys properly.

 

So in a nut shell, if we are truely teaching these boys to be good citizens and future leaders of this country we should hold them to the standards of BSA and require them to do the requirements for both the Rank and MB's.

 

 

[anarchist]

Regarding 'remembering'...and I am gonna ruffle some feathers on this one...

...'dan' and others keep repeating, in this and other threads, that 'once a requirement is signed off it is over'...done...'the BSA doesn't say they have to remember it'....and frankly I think that is a bag of natural fertilizer...

Let's use some first class requirements for this discussion: It is incomprehensible that BSA after telling the boys about 1st class... "when you have earned the right to wear it, you will have completed the training you need to take part in most of Scouting's activities and adventures" (page 111, handbook)...come on folks...'trained' implys an ability to carry it with you to take part in our activities...it expressly does not say go through the motions...and you earn the right...(go play kiddie soccer if you want a free trophy)

When a boy wears the first class badge he should be expected to be able to demostrate those skills sets appropriate to his rank. Perhaps he is entitled to stumble a little here and there (I guess) but no one in this forum can tell me that a boy standing for 1st class who can't tie a square knot or a bowline or identify the primary poisonous plant in his area is worthy of wearing the rank ...because he talked his way through it once...sorry, but that dog won't hunt. old B-P would spin in his grave at that thought! To buttress this a bit further I quote the last few lines of the first class section, page 165 "AS A FIRST CLASS SCOUT, you'll be surprised to discover...and how effectively you can TEACH...the scouting skills you have MASTERED"

Think its kind of hard to teach what you don't know...don't you???

 

and yes dan we have several more things in policy than the scout oath and law ...to avoid misunderstandings and scouts or parents who think they are Philadephia lawyers....most of them could be boiled down to the 12 points but we avoid word games by spelling out simple rules...most by the way, are suggested by the scouts in our first meeting each year when patrols meet to talk about how they want to do things in the coming year...and most of our scout policies revolve around how the boys wish to be treated and how they expect others to treat the property of our CO...respect, safety,etc.

 

don't cha love this stuff!

[Hunt]

I know this is blasphemy, but what's the big deal about all these knots? With the camping equipment most people use today, the need to tie a bunch of different knots is significantly reduced. (Back when giants walked the earth, we all had to tie knots to put up our tents, for example.) Scouts will remember skills they frequently use. If they don't need to tie many knots, the only way they will remember them is if they tie them frequently when they aren't needed--and I question that use of their time.

Maybe another way of putting this is that with a few exceptions (first aid), there shouldn't be a need to retest boys on skills, because they would have been part of an active program in which they used the skills they need.

[SR540Beaver]

Hunt,

 

You have a valid point. Let me throw this at you though. I just got a GPS for Christmas. I love it! My son and I have used it this past weekend to go geocaching. One of the first things the intruction book says is to not depend on this unit as your primary navigation tool. It suggests using it in conjunction with a compass. Our troop uses Ez-ups instead of dining flys. You can set an Ez-up in less than a minute. But what if you are faced with needing shelter and all you have is a poncho? It doesn't have an expanding frame and four legs you can just pop up for instant shelter. Another way to look at it is what coaches teach all the time. Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals. You can get fancy after you know the fundamanetals. The fundamentals are the basic skills you need to be self sufficient. They may not need to use knots with the equipment they use now days, but what do they do if they have to face a situation without that equipment. Sure you can take a blow torch to camp to start a fire, but what if you neen to buid one with a flint and steel? Can you do it? Knots are important. They can be a difference between life and death in some situations.

[dan]

anarchist

There is one 2 fatal flaws in your thoughts on mastered skills, at least in my mind. How long does it take to master a skill?

A scout learns how to tie the knots for 1st class, 3 months later he asks for his SM conference, but he has not used the knots since he mastered them 3 months ago, what is the chance he will remember how to tie them, most likely he will not, and whose fault is that, I say its the troops. I think you skipped over a very important part of what I typed, it was:

 

It should be the troop responsible to make sure that the scouts are using the skills, so they are not forgotten.

 

I do not believe a skill can be mastered enough to not be forgotten, if the skill is not used it will be forgotten.

In my experience I have found that the scout teaching the skills learns more than the trainee, it is really exciting watching a scout teaching and how they grow from it. Which is where I think you and I differ on this. I expect a 1st class scout to step up and teach other scouts how to tie the knots, but he may not have remembered how, when he was asked to do this training at the next meeting, but I expect him to be prepared to refresh his skills before the training date.

I have staffed to JLTC, it is something I really enjoy doing, the biggest thrill is watching the scout staffer grow in the 6 months I spend with them, they get alot more out of the course than the participants.

 

I would also like to know what kind of polices you have written up, could you share them?

 

And Yes I do .

[evmori]

How many kids can't tell time unless it's digital? How many kids can't add a column of numbers with out a computer?

 

Tying knots is a skill that once mastered will serve you throughout life! I have used the knots I learned more out of Scouting than I do in Scouting!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[anarchist]

dan... we really do disagree on this!

 

first it's not my thought on 'mastery of a skill, it is a direct quote from the BSA handbook...

And this is where I whole-heartedly disagree with many posters on the subject of rank, testing and advancement.

 

I believe if a boy is challenged to learn something and you let him slide by... with him looking at it for five minutes before he shows you he "knows how to do it"...You are wasting his time and yours...lets just give them all their Eagle patches at the first meeting and start a game of capture the flag!

 

And dan, blaming the troop for a boy forgetting a skill in three months?...Gosh they don't even tolerate that in public schools, do they?

 

If a boy wants a rank and has not finished it...(ie. his SM conference) what is wrong with expecting him to stay on top of that skill set for a few months? good gosh, merit badges are the area for trying and forgetting, not rank skills. this is not Cub Scouts.

and JLTC staffing.... been there, done that, and had same great experience but it does not change the bottom line scouts need to grow, mature, take responsibility, and learn.

If the house we are building is good citizens and men and the pinicle is the EAGLE, don't you think the foundation should be rock solid rather than mush?

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

anarchist,

 

I'm somewhere in the middle on this. I don't want a boy to study a knot right before he shows me and not retain it 5 minutes later either. But, boys being boys, very few of them will sit around the house practicing knots when there is a Playstation available. That is where the troop comes in and provides a means thru their program to reinforce and use these skills. I've studied a number of things over the years. I studied photography and me and my two brothers built a dark room in our parents garage and developed tons of our own pictures. That was 25 years ago. I couldn't tell you the first thing about it today, just basic concepts at best.

 

I do expect the boys to learn it and not just breeze thru it. But I also expect US to provide them with ongoing opportunities to put it in practice. If a boy really learns how to use a taut line hitch today and never uses it in the next four years, I doubt seriously that he will be able to do it on demand. Heck, my son took after his mother and has super fine retention abilities. Show them once and you never have to show them again. I'm an ASM and I have to have him show me knots all the time.....and he is only 11. I blame it on being 47.

 

Arguments can be made that with todays equipment, the need no longer exists for learning to buid a fire, build a shelter or tie a knot. You like me, see these as skills that teach a boy confidence and I believe are valuable survival skills. I'm sure there are some people who just went thru a tsunami who would like to know a few of these skills right now. You never know what is going to happen 10 seconds from now.

 

But they will not remember it long term, no matter how well they learned it, if they are not given opportunities to use it.

[dan]

anarchist

I guess I did not make myself clear in my post.

What do you consider mastered, I know you said you took it out of the BS Handbook, but how do you or the troop decide that a skill is mastered?

 

What methods do you use to make sure a scout never forgets a skill once it is mastered?

 

And are you saying it is up to the scouts in the troop to teach themselves the skills and the troop does not have anything to do with this?

 

It sounds like, from your post, that the scouts have to show the SM that he knows how to do all of the requirements at the SM conference.

 

You are correct the 3 months was weak, but are you saying that a scout going for his eagle has to have remembered all of the skills from 1st and 2nd class, without the troop giving him any chances to utilize the skills?

 

Just for reference, I do not sign off of requirement unless the scout knows the requirement. If a scout is tying a bowline and he struggles I will work with him until he gets it or if he cannot get it, I tell him to keep working on it, and see me when he can do it.

 

 

[anarchist]

Gosh I love this stuff....

 

dan, (and SR) long reply...and Moderator if you want to move this off somewhere...we are getting off subject a bit....

 

I don't really consider... 'master' thats BSA language... I consider KNOWING.

 

We use knots at nearly every outdoor event our troop does. Our troop/patrols use a rain fly at every camp-rain or shine, we also lash a flag pole (even if one already exists) and at least one or two tripods. We have our own set of canoes (EZ-Ups take too much space) and canoe trailer that we use at every oportunity, so ropes and hitches are are important to us...We do not even let the boys leave their tautline knots in their lines, so that they have to tie them again and again and again...

 

dan,

I did not say the troop did not re-teach, we do it constantly! We also have the boys teach others until it becomes conter-productive. What I said was don't blame the adults or the troop if a boy forgets...

(as I have said before, maybe because we see so many 'complaints' posted... we seem to always 'blame' the troop...the twit SM but never the 'plaintif'...)

In our troop, we offer the opportunity the boys must do their part and learn, if they want to advance.

 

Our SM is a Really Good Guy (RGG) He spends lots of time with the scouts, one on one in many cases. He also wanders through camp sites constantly challenging the boys to show him something...While he does not test on every thing in SM conferences he does talk the scout through every requirement and if he senses a problem, he very well may test and schedule a secong SM conference the following week.

 

As for me and Eagle Scouts remembering ist and 2nd class stuff...yep, I truely feel that the 'best of the best' (MIB I)should be able to demonstrate a sound knowledge and understanding of all rank required skill sets up to and including EAGLE...(dan to add "without the troop giving him any chances to utilize..." again places all the blame on the troop...what ever happened to you gotta play to win???) Less than a strong knowledge and ability to demonstrate the material, to me, equals a paper eagle...and that's another thread...

 

A story:

I run or support a shakedown campout for NSP's every year. The only older scouts who attend are the guides and a few instructors...Cooking, camp set-up, knots and whipping (rope-not boys although....)first aid and lashing gadgets all figure in to our weekend schedule. One year, I roped a Star scout from my older son's patrol to teach...I had watched him struggle with Knot-tying since he was bear cub scout...in the few weeks we had prior to the shakedown, as we passed around the lesson plans most of the boys just sort of naturally

picked what they wanted to teach and finally it was down to first aid or knots and he went for the first aid packet...Being the mean old guy, I got there first tossed it to the other scout and let "J" know he was teaching knots to 21 boys rotating into his area three or four at a time. I thought he was going to be physically sick...( a fouteen and 1/2 year, old 6 ft, 180lb. boy hurling on you is not a pleasant thought). He pleaded that he never really 'got' knots and his mates sort of helped him out...My reply was; well he need to get cracking! Review the lesson plans and let's get together next week...it was painful...he was one who put every thing into short term memory...everything! We worked and worked and he came through the weekend nowing how to do it, and how to teach it

 

...but being in a very strong patrol (6 of 9 guys just short of eagle...legitimately, skill-wise, good scouts) had allowed him to coast. for years...We went back through his entire set of basic scout skills and made him learn and teach...It was not always pleasant (he even put the cake mix in the D.O. first then the fruit for a dump cobbler-can you spell concrete!) but he finally did it and now he is the seventh out of nine...writing up his final report on his Eagle Project.

 

I am just a firm believer in hard work being worth while...lets have fun but some of this stuff is serious learning ...and can fun if you do it right and if the boys have the desire! Let's stop boiling every thing down to the lowest common denomiator. If you set the bat high these kids will surprise you...every time. Left to their own desires many scout would like us to just give them a rank patch every year...just like kiddie soccer! Do we want that for Scouting?

 

[dan]

I do not believe this discussion has gotten off of the topic, it is very relevant to the original question.

I was just trying to make sure I understood what you where saying. Even now I am not sure what you are saying, and why.

There has been many good discussion here lately, many where I have learned much.

and with that I feel that you do not want me to ask anymore questions, that you are not willing to share, so thank you for the time you did spend on this.

[Hunt]

I get uncomfortable when I read about troops in which the adult leaders impose tough standards and requirements beyond the advancement requirements--I really question whether such troops are boy-led. When I read about all the things boys are "required" or "not allowed" to do, I have to wonder why the PLC is making those decisions--oops, it isn't the PLC making them, it's adults who think Scouting is about doing the hard work to learn useful (maybe) skills. While I don't think boys should be allowed to sleaze through their requirements, there are good reasons we aren't supposed to retest requirements that have been appropriately signed off. Mastery of skills should come from participation in a quality program, not from cramming based on fear that adult overlords will flunk the scouts at conference or board of review.