Religious award

[ScoutNut]

 

 

(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

[ScoutNut]

(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

[EagleInKY]

Scoutnut - I couldn't have said it better myself.

[packsaddle]

In case there's confusion, the reason for my initial inquiry was a statement by Bob White,

"At the present time the BSA does not approve the requirements set forth by the Unitarian Church for their award."

In that message I detected something I had never known before, specifically that BSA objected to the requirements that UUA has established for the award. This was news to me and in contradiction to the record of the controversy that I had read in the past, so I asked about it.

 

I think the matter has been settled, again from Bob White,

"Which requirement(s) the BSA has a problem with I neither know or(sic) worry about." Evidently the requirements are not the subject of BSA objections after all. This, at last, is consistent with the record.

[packsaddle]

WWBPD, NJ, I also noticed the lax control on patches. I actually still have my original card for my God and Country award. But when I asked for the patch there were no questions asked (nor, I add, for the eagle patch I also asked for). As far as I'm concerned, a UUA boy who wears the patch in violation of the regs will not suffer at my hands. I will leave that for the professionals.

 

fgoodwin, I noticed the absence of the requirements for these awards on internet sites, a conspicuous absence. For that reason, I'm concerned about publishing those requirements here. Maybe I'm being too careful but if I can determine that I will not violate copyright or something similar, I'll list them for you along with changes that took place during the time of this controversy.

[fgoodwin]

packsaddle: you need not post the actual requirements; I'm sure if UUA charges for the workbooks, they would not appreciate the requirements being posted for free.

 

But I doubt if there would be any problems if you posted only the changes; I think its a "fair use" to publish portions for purposes of education and discussion.

[Bob White]

Packsaddle

The confusion comes from (and was created by) your own total fabrication of a quote that you attribute to me.

 

I never posted what you wrote.

 

You falsey quote me as saying "At the present time the BSA does not approve the requirements set forth by the Unitarian Church for their award."

 

What I posted was "While the BSA does not determine the requirements or present the awards they do determine which awards will be a part of the religious award program."

 

That is not even close to your quote of me. Please either improve your accuracy or stop quoting me all together. I wold prefer the latter.

[packsaddle]

OK, this is getting a little weird. I offer the following three responses as a lesson on civility, two of them in separate messages:

 

Bob White, I think you may want to rethink your last response. Take a look at your other responses, especially your very first response in this thread, the second paragraph, and I think you'll see the portion of your response that I quoted.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[packsaddle]

Here is an alternate response, along the lines of some I have read in the past:

 

Bob, I am astounded. I haven't fabricated anything. I am not engaging in a deception. You did say that and I quoted you exactly. When I quote someone, I attempt to clip it directly from their original message. Only under special circumstances do I ever retype a quote and I usually note departures from the original if there are any.

If you had read the next paragraph of your own message you would have seen it for yourself, I can't believe you could think the rest of us don't see it. I think everyone else can. In case this isn't as obvious as the nose on your face (and I have never seen you to my knowledge, it's probably a magnificent nose) your response in totality, posted: Thursday, 11/18/2004: 5:12:32 PM in first page of this thread,

BEGINNING OF BOB WHITE'S MESSAGE:

"The BSA does not approve or disapprove of ANY religion. The BSA approves what awards it recognizes for wear on the BSA uniform, and does so based on their requirements and how those requirements further the values and Aims of the BSA Program.

 

At the present time the BSA does not approve the requirements set forth by the Unitarian Church for their award. The Scout is welcome to pursue the recognition from his church, he simply may not wear the award on his Scout Uniform.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)"

END OF BOB WHITE'S MESSAGE

 

The portion of the above response by you that I quoted was merely clipped from that response. Here I have clipped it from my message unaltered, "At the present time the BSA does not approve the requirements set forth by the Unitarian Church for their award."

 

If you examine your response, second paragraph, first sentence, everyone should see exactly the quote that I mentioned. I haven't fabricated anything. I don't know your password and I wouldn't attempt to edit anyone else's message. Unless someone else did that, I assume that the response with your name on it...came from you. Or have I made a mistake in this assumption? Are you saying that the Bob White who wrote that response is another person?

Now THAT would indeed be reason for some confusion.

 

[packsaddle]

Now my second response actually doesn't begin to match the tone of some I have read in the past but it gets the point across, I think.

My first response recognizes that Bob made several errors and I have attempted to limit his embarrassment. It is a far more constructive way to address the problem than the second response.

In that response, I could have noted Bob's accusations, his inference that I have not been honest. I could have taken up Bob's last remark and suggested that if he doesn't want to be quoted, he shouldn't write anything. None of that would have been constructive.

 

Among these threads it is easy to get caught up in the heat and I plead guilty of having done that in the past. But if we are to be constructive, we need to try to set passion aside. And if someone, Bob perhaps, errs in word and passion, I think it best to give the benefit of the doubt. Give them a chance to recognize the error and make an honest effort to address it.

 

So now:

Bob, Would you like to try that again? I really did try to quote you accurately.

[packsaddle]

Signing off in a few minutes to go to Grandma's. Have a happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[SWScouter]

The Religious Award knot is the BSA uniform representation of the religious awards that are a part of the BSA religious award program. While the BSA does not determine the requirements or present the awards they do setermine which awards will be a part of the religious award program.

 

Those participating awards are identified on the religious award brochure published by the BSA. The knot can be worn to represent any of the medals explained in that brochure.

 

But can it (the knot) be worn for other religious awards earned as a youth? Here's two scenarios where I thought it was okay and obviously, the award is not part of the BSA religious award program. First, a girl earns the religious awards of her faith as a Girl Scout. If she then joins venturing, can't she wear the knot on her venturing uniform? Next, she becomes an adult and volunteers as a Scouter. Can't she now wear the knot on her uniform? It was my understanding that in both cases she could. Now I am not sure.

 

SWScouter(This message has been edited by SWScouter)

[SWScouter]

For the scout to receive the knot he would have to apply for it from the BSA. That would mean the unit telling the council which religious award was earned.

 

Currently, I am the religious emblems coordinator for the pack I serve. I have never informed the council of the awards. I do inform the diocese of the awards. Actually, that's how they're ordered. I just go to the council scout shop and buy the knots; I have never been questioned about them.

 

Currently, I have only dealt with REs of the Roman Catholic faith. I would have to find out how to order any other REs though I don't consider that an issue.

 

Every year, the interfaith committee here has a service recognizing all people that received a RE in the councils (BSA, GSUSA, etc). Each person that has is sent an invitation. All the boys I've submitted REs for has received an invitation so the word is getting out through the diocese.

 

Maybe how the knots are handled varies council by council.

 

SWScouter

[Trevorum]

BSA never objected to any of the award's requirements. They objected to a few sentences in the guidebook which were critical of BSA's membership policies.

 

Since recognition of the award was rescinded in 1998, UU youth have been enjoined from wearing the award or it's knot on their uniform. Importantly, UU youth are still welcomed in scouting and should still be encouraged to *earn* the award.

[Region 7 Voyageur]

Trevorum's post brings another question to my mind.

 

If a scout earned the UU religious award before 1998 may they still wear the award today or a knot to represent it?(This message has been edited by Region 7 Voyageur)