Eagle Preparation: are we really doing the Scouts a disservice?

[Fat Old Guy]

Are we putting too much emphasis on Eagle? We always say that advancement should be the outcome of a good program but isn't that program supposed to be focused on Scouting and not advancement?

 

We send kids to camp for "Trail to First Class" and then tailor campouts to meet requirements. Rather than going on a hike and letting the Scout find the things needed for his requirements, we take Scouts on hikes specifically so he can find signs of animals and identify trees.

 

How many troops conduct "Trail to Eagle" planning sessions? How many troops have Eagle Advisors?

 

Does all this really make advancement the natural outcome of the program or does it make the program about advancement?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Achieving one goal and then stating that you climbed the mountain in record time falls far short of the race. There are mountains in this race and few will ever get close to finishing. Point your Scouts in the direction of the mountains and let them decide which one to climb first and how they want to do it. I agree Scouting comes first, always. Good program is essential and good program brings in to focus the best kind of a badge, a great memory.

 

I have a "badge" from August 1964 at Philmont Scout Ranch when I was 15. We were passing up and over a ridge and there arose this magnificent view beyond with tall trees on each side of the trail where I stood. I looked down at my feet and was awarded the tail of the dead skunk by the woods. I picked it up and put it with my small collection of artifacts that formed the basis to one part of my Scouting journey that I considered remarkable. It seems funny now when I look back on it but the high award I received on that day paled in comparison to the view which I still remember vividly.

 

Fuzzy Bear

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

If indeed 5 out of every 100 scouts earns Eagle, that is a 95 percent failure rate. Any organization that has a 95 percent failure rate should be concentrating on how to improve, not try to manipulate roadblocks to drive the failure rate higher, to 97-98 percent. Oh wait, making Eagle isnt the goal of the BSA, making First Class is, in the words of Emily Litella, ... Nevermind...

[red feather]

Some scouts are Eagle destined. Some are not and some need the push to get there.

 

We do not have Eagle advisors just ASMs or CMs that take an interest in a scout that is close but slipping. Sometimes an outside interested person is what is needed to keep the scout focused. Been there done that.

 

OGE, not often do I disagree with you, but...while 5 out of a 100 is not good... I do not wish that scouting gets to the point that 95% get their Eagle. That gets close to the 'Eagle Mill' sort of situation. Many scouts get close and then choose a different path (as I am sure you know) but the things and ideals that they were exposed to while a scout will go with them.

 

We can do better with program and instruction that is without a doubt.

 

All scouting can do is provide the path and help, the rest is really up to the scout.

 

Sorry about the soap box.

 

yis

[BadenP]

OGE I disagree with your analogy of a 95% failure rate. The Eagle award should take a great deal of scouting knowledge and action and should be an honor that only those really dedicated should receive. Instead the whole process has degraded to the point of absurdity. Unit leaders and BOR's are passing inferior Eagle projects and minimally prepared scouts. So in a sense the Eagle is almost given away with mediocre and substandard preparation just to quiet over zealous parents of a 12 or 13 yr old scout.

 

As a corporate executive having an Eagle no longer carries the same status it once did on a resume, and thats a shame. OGE, when you give an award away easily with minimal effort it loses its value and has no lasting meaning to the boy. The road to Eagle has become a minor footpath, and we have done and are doing a grave disservice to the boys and the spirit of scouting.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I have witnessed projects done over a three day weekend with Mom and Dad wildly leading the charge to stamp out 900 widgets and hang them all around town like it was a holiday. Generally, they were an eighth day, 25th hour project done before son turned into a pumpkin at 18. They also took pictures and proclaimed victory for all of the little animals that used them! I was surprised they didn't have a parade for such grand work.

FB

[OldGreyEagle]

Ok, so maybe I didnt express my thought as lucidly as possible.

 

I see and hear a lot of hand wringing about how "easy" it is for scouts to earn Eagle and the veritable plethora of 12-13 year old Eagles that inundate the countryside. I see a lot of attempts to "shore up" the Eagle rank. Most of them center around the scout, what the scout has to do. restrictions on the scout.

 

What I dont see is an appreciation that for every Eagle, whether 12 or 17 years and 364 days old who is not "genuine Eagle material" there is a troop that is responsible, not the scout. And if its the product of parents, then its the parents, not the scout.

 

What we need is not more restriction on Eagle, but more adherence to the current rules. I feel the same way about this as I do gun control laws. I dont think we need more laws, just better enforcement of the laws that are in effect today, is that better?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Atomic Tomatoes

 

I entered the high school Science Fair when I was a sixteen. On the weekend prior to the contest, my Mom typed up my fairly short paper on our old Smith-Cornea manual typewriter. It had the proper divisions and headings that explained all about the "work" of growing Atomic tomatoes. I had sent off for tomato seeds that had been exposed to radiation and I had purchased a packet of seeds that were just regular old tomatoes. To obtain the highest points available, I made a backdrop of cardboard and I had stenciled the basic experiment onto, of course, I had started and completed it on the night before the contest, so it was done in short form. A week before the contest, I decided it was high time to plant the seeds. The seedlings, both the experimental and control groups, had sprouted and were barely out of the ground on the night of the great competition. I was given a participants ribbon which I still have to this day. The judges were not greatly impressed with all of my diligent efforts and I and my Atomic tomatoes did not go on to make history. I hope I didnt get a good dose of radiation from my short exposure to those tomatoes.

 

Fuzzy Bear

 

[acco40]

I always wondered what the source for "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes!" was. Now I know. Did Dan Quayle help "spell check" your project?

[Eamonn]

I don't know what numbers are used to come up with this 5%?

The skills needed to become a First Class Scout, form the groundwork or the foundation for all the good stuff that there is to come. Sadly in a lot of troops, the Scouts don't really learn this stuff and there isn't any good stuff coming where they can put these skills to work.Without this good stuff the program isn't a good program.

To my mind too many leaders are forgetting that Outdoors is a method of Scouting. This entails a lot more then a week spent at the same old Council ran Summer Camp and attending the District Camporees. While the requirements don't say that you have to really put the skills learned on the way to First Class to a lot of use. These skills are the backbone of the outdoor program. The idea of having our Scouts acquire these skills in 12 - 18 months, is so that they can move on to use these skills for bigger and more exciting activities.

I don't have a problem with an adult explaining to a Scout what is needed to reach the rank of Eagle Scout. Pointing out what the required merit badges are and explaining that maybe he ought to think about doing these when the opportunity arrives. This person might also act as a resource, finding different projects that are available in the community that could be used for the leadership project. He could also explain the job description for the POR's and help the Scout decide which one of these he is best suited for and maybe work with the Scout to establish goals in this area. I do however think this ought to be left with the SM.

Advancement is a method of Scouting and we need in our programs to find the right balance when putting these methods to use. There will be times in a troop when the Patrol method works like a charm. There will be times when it falls flat on it's face. We can at one time have a group of Scouts that are so busy that making the outdoor program work is next to imposable. The same can be said for advancement. There are times when a group of very competitive Scouts will join and go all out for advancement. Some Scouts just don't care about advancing. They just love Scouting for the camping and outdoor stuff.

These Eagle guys are OK with me. As long as they remember that it is not their Eagle Scout rank. That belongs to each Scout as does the decision to whether the Scout wants to make becoming an Eagle Scout a goal or not.

Eamonn.

[evmori]

These Eagle guys are OK with me. As long as they remember that it is not their Eagle Scout rank. That belongs to each Scout as does the decision to whether the Scout wants to make becoming an Eagle Scout a goal or not.

 

Exactly! The rank belongs to the Scout not the adults!

 

I agree, Fat Old Guy. Like everything else, Scouting is getting programed instead of doing things just for the mere enjoyment of doing it!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fat Old Guy]

"The skills needed to become a First Class Scout, form the groundwork or the foundation for all the good stuff that there is to come. Sadly in a lot of troops, the Scouts don't really learn this stuff and there isn't any good stuff coming where they can put these skills to work."

 

I don't have the resources to do a study and I'm sure that BSA will never admit but I believe that the "First Class Emphasis" and "First Class/First Year" stuff is to blame for much.

 

We seem to have quite a few people who think that if a Scout doesn't make it to 1st Class by the end of his first year, that he's a failure and that the program has failed. I hear too many leaders saying, "I want to run these boys through XYZ so they can get ABC" (fill in with XYZ and ABC of your choice). Run them through? Is this an assembly line?

[scoutldr]

What I see going on, not only in Scouting, but in society, is a push on the part of parents to "protect" their kids from ever failing or being unhappy. I was speaking with a friend yesterday, who described their troop meetings as totally run and planned by the troop committee. Every moment is planned and orchestrated, even to the point of having MB counsellors (who belong to that troop only) come to the meeting. During "Merit Badge" time, the scouts run to line up at the appropriate table and "hand in their stuff" to the counsellor who then gives them their assignment for the next week. At the end of x weeks, all of them get the same badge. (And for BW's sake, who I know is lurking, yes the leaders have been trained).

 

Forgive me, folks but that is not teaching kids anything. The original purpose of the MB program was to teach kids to a)decide what MB they need to advance, b) go to the SM to get names of counselors and a signed blue card. At that point, the troop is out of the loop until the signed blue card comes back completed. It is then UP TO THE SCOUT to make the contact, make an appointment, and take a buddy to go see someone they have never met before and develop a relationship. Completing the requirements is but a fraction of what the MB program was designed to teach.

 

What did becoming an Eagle USED to mean? It meant that this was someone who had the wherewithal to take initiative, make decisions about his own future, show courage to do new things and meet new people, lead others in organizing and accomplishing something of value, and last but not least, had a strong moral compass. I have seen Eagle candidates recommended to the BOR who had a juvenile record...would have been a felony if he'd been over 18. But, you say, he met the requirements! Sorry, but we're just not "getting it." Putting the Eagle Award (not "rank") on a young man's shirt is telling society, "this is the cream of the crop and he has our heartiest recommendation and trust." Any less, is letting down all of the Eagles who have gone on before.

 

Sorry to say, I think we (as parents) have lost sight of the purpose. Now, when I see a new Eagle, all I know for sure is that he was able to follow a cookbook and complete all of the steps with someone holding his hand and telling him what to do and when to do it each step of the way. Yes, he could tie a square knot. Or at least, he was in the group sitting there when the Camp Counselor showed them what one looked like and put a check mark in the box. Yes, he did a project...just like his Dad told him to, and his Mom put it in a neat little scrapbook for him. Yes, he earned 21 MB...the same ones that the rest of the troop earned.

 

Every Scout has the opportunity to make Eagle. But not all will because they did not or could not develop the qualities that the Eagle represents. And that's just fine with me and Society.

[KoreaScouter]

(My posts have been getting truncated lately; if it looks like I fell asleep mid-message and my nose hit the "submit" button, please forgive me...)

 

It's not our mission to produce Eagle Scouts. Hence, I don't measure my performance by how many I crank out (hatch?), and tend to hold at arm's length those Scouters who do. When a Scout tells me his goal is to earn Eagle, I encourage him to think of Eagle as an intermediate goal, followed by Palms, and continued service in OA, as a Scouter, and so on. Many Scouts earn their Eagle and then quit, because they reached their goal -- push that goal out until they have kids of their own in the program and they're hopelessly hooked like we are!

 

I don't spoon-feed Life Scouts. At the Life conference, I make sure they know what they need, and our council provides the project workbook, and other materials, along with the Life badge. I check in with them regularly, to see how they're balancing school, family, work if applicable, other extracurriculars, etc., with Scouting. I make sure they have opportunities for leadership, service, and Merit Badges they may need, with an eye on their desires, available time, and their birthdays. I'm not aloof, but I don't open their mouths and cram a project in either. I also converse with parents along the way to see how he's doing, what kind of time he has, how his grades are, and so on. I'll lead a new Scout working on his Tenderfoot by the hand -- I expect a Life Scout to not need a ding-dong school on planning and goal setting.

 

On the subject of parents, their involvement is critical. Support, understanding, cheerleading, encouragement, nudges when necessary, should come from them as much as from me -- they know the lad better than anyone. I would suggest that it's a very rare Scout who earns his Eagle without the active support of his family. I've never seen one; if you have, please tell me about him.

 

KS

[OneHour]

In our troop, we follow the advice of ... get the scout to First Class and the chance of him staying in scout will be great. That's the reason why we have TFC. It is not a way to spoon feed the boy. It is a way to show them the road through the toughest year. We have TFC program so that we can provide them with an opportunity to complete their TFC requirements. It is up to them to take advantage of it. Now, the TFC program does not necessary mean an automatic sign off of the requirements. They still have to be tested and proved that they know the stuffs. Once they achieve their 1st Class ranking ... they are on their own to finish the remaining ranks. If they have the incentives then great. If they don't, oh well, we'll encourage them through SM conference or BOR or just plain talk. So far, there are 6 that are stuck in the Life gear and do we (adult leaders) care? Of course we do, but we will not get them to get their projects going. It is up to the boys (and if their parents care). Eagle advisor, we have one, but it's for a boy who has no idea on how, when, where to start. He will point the place to find the answer, but not the answer itself. He will offer advices, but not solutions. He will summon help, when the Eagle candidate has done his best to seek the resources to help with his project.

 

Trail to First Class program ... not really a disservice. Doing the work for a scout or blindly sign off requirement ... a disservice. Hands-on assistance and doing everything for an Eagle (Eagle Preparation) ... a disservice.

 

1Hour