Changing hearts and minds

[torribug]

I've been a lurker here for about six months, so I have learned a great deal from you all - big Thanks, by the way.

 

Having been a scouter for 11 years, most recently as troop committe secretary for 1 1/2 years, I know that we shouldn't add to nor take away from the requirements. Unfortunately, the "seasoned" leadership in my son's troop don't subscribe to that belief. They have imposed additional requirements, in part I think, because they don't think that it's "right" for a 14 year-old to reach Eagle. As a matter of fact, my son has been in the troop for almost 2 years, and they say he is moving "too fast" because he just achieved Star rank. FY/FC? Forget it!

 

After a scout has all of his requirements signed off for ranks up to First Class, we have a peer review process, in which the Instructors test the scout seeking rank advancement before they can go on to the SM conference. I have learned from this forum that this is not BSA Policy. The Scoutmaster (or ASM, if it is for TF through FC) then retests the scout during the SM conference (again, not BSA policy).

 

When I question said leadership about these policies, the response I get is, "That's just the way we do things." Truthfully, I like and (more importantly) TRUST the leadership in this troop, so I haven't rocked the boat. It was only about two months ago that we changed the format of the BOR so that it isn't yet ANOTHER testing session, so I think that we are making progress. However, I am concerned that my son and two other boys who are now at Star or First class, and who are eager to earn the next rank, will be held back because of their age or because the committee feels that it's okay to "fail" a boy in the BOR.

 

I have not taken any formal training at the Boy Scout level (I did for cubs and for Explorers), so I feel like I don't have a leg to stand on. Even if I do take training, it might appear that I am taking the training just to prove the seasoned folks wrong. I'm also the youngest adult volunteer in the troop, and don't want to appear smarmy.

 

Has anyone here been in this situation, and how have you resolved the problems without turning everyone against you? I really do want this to be a quality program - I can see my son being in this troop for many years to come.

 

Thx, The Bug

[OldGreyEagle]

Well, changing hearts and minds is a difficult task.

You said you were able to change the BOR process a little, here is something you might want to add. According to the "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures" book, 33088D (2002 Printing) page 30

 

If the BOR decides against passing the boy, the reasons must be explained to him, what he has done that needs to be reworked and improved. The BOR must then schedule another date to review the boys progress and a followup letter must be sent to the scout confirming the agreements reached on the actions necessary for advancement. Should the scout disagree with the descions,the appeal process must be explained to the scout.

 

That would be the next "thing" to add to the BOR process.

If you complete the requirements, you advance, stumbling blocks added by perhaps well meaning Troops do the entire program a dis-service

 

 

 

[LPC_Thumper]

I've stumbled across this in the past... The first thing I try to get to is "If we're Boy Scouts, shouldn't we run the program?" I also play the "I'm new here, I don't understand. Please explain why I read this in the manuals, and I don't see a great troop like ours do..." This approach works, because I'm NOT say "Hey you bunch of duck lovers! Why are you so messed up??" If I play dumb, and ask why things are this way, while national/council/district say to do it differently? It works for me. The key is however, you need to find some sources. Don't use the "well I saw it from LPC_Thumper and he sounds like a pretty good bead-stringer (also I hear he's handsome)." Get yourself trained, get the books and check on this yourself. Then when you do stumble into things you can just ask.

 

Good luck and keep us posted. It been my experience here that people try to help as much as they can.

[torribug]

There were a few things I left out of last posting because it was already so long.

1. I don't have printed resources. I went to the scoutstuff website to see what I could find, and didn't see what I "think" I need, until OGE cited "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures." I will order that through the supply division today.

2. Training has been a bit of a problem. The two times that I have known about it being offered in our district, I had to attend drill for the Guard. In case I ever want to run for president, I don't ever want it to be an issue that I missed a couple of drill sessions ;-). I am going to start attending roundtables, then I may be able to learn of more training opportunities.

3. When I questioned the powers that be, I did it in an "I'm new here, can you tell me why this isn't shown in the scout manual?" kind of way. That's when I got the answer, "that's just the way we do things." Got this answer from several people - some were polite about it, but some seemed threatened that someone would challenge the status quo.

 

Until I can arrange for training, are there any other printed materials that I might want to look at?

[LPC_Thumper]

A copy of the Advancement Guideline manual would be GREAT, Scoutmaster Handbook would help too. Do you happen to know your Unit Commissioner? Might, and I stress might be worth asking for clarification from them as well. Don't tattle, instead ask for ways they have seen these questions handled. You might even point them here. Just don't make the mistake that many have. We try hard to give correct info, but just because it's on the web, doesn't make it right... Know what I mean?

[FScouter]

Suggested literature in addition to what has already been suggested:

Troop Committee Guidebook #34505B

Guide to Safe Scouting #34416D, (orange cover. The red, blue, or green covers are old versions)

Insignia Guide # 33066D

Boy Scout Requirements 2004 #33215 (lists the requirements for all ranks, merit badges, and various other awards)

Ensure that you are a registered member of BSA so you will get the Scouting magazine every month.

 

[buffalo2]

Might be worth going through the SM training series - if only so you can drag some other adults along... Probably coming up pretty soon?

[Eamonn]

Hi Bug

Welcome to the forums.

While I agree with just about everything that the three wise men have posted: Get the material, read it and get whatever training is offered. The "That's the way we do it." is a really hard nut to crack.

I used to warn people who had attended training's to not try and change everything at once.When I was a young keen and enthusiastic leader (Oh for the good old days) My poor Group Scout Leader (UK) spent half the time at leaders meetings telling me "Slowly, slowly catchee monkey." It used to drive me nuts.

Some of these guys have been doing it wrong for so long they believe in their heart of hearts that they are doing it right. Some even believe that the program and the troop is theirs to do what they will with. Of course none of this makes what they are doing right and as OGE has said they are in fact doing the entire program a dis- service. He also said that they are well meaning.

No one will ever know how many times I have had to bite my tongue as I travel around the Council and see Leaders who I know that know better doing things "Their Way".

I at times drop hints. Rather then getting in their face and telling them outright that they are doing it wrong. More of a gentle nudge.

You might do well to meet with the unit commissioner and explain your concerns. Telling him or her that you are not out to rock the boat but that know what is going on is not the way this game ought to be played.

It is also important to not dwell on everything that is not working. Take time to look at the things that are working. Heck, we have units in our area that haven't seen a Lad advance in eons. Some Lads have two and three years with the troop and are still Tenderfoot.( Not in the district in which I serve.)

Things could be worse.

Eamonn.

[torribug]

I am going to go to the SM fundamentals training. We also have a lot of dads of new scouts that will likely be attending as well. The deviance from BSA policy truly isn't a matter of untrained leadership - it's a matter of questioning the status quo.

 

Now I have another question - if I am not able to attend the training that my district offers because I have other committments on the same weekend, will other districts allow me to attend their training (assuming it's on a different weekend)?

[ScoutNut]

You can attend any training put on by any of your councils districts. You should also be able to attend training at different councils, but for that I would check with your council for verification.

 

 

[FScouter]

Trainings throughout the country use the same syllabus and are valid anywhere in the country.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I have been a Unit Commissioner. Generally speaking, a person must be accepted within the group before changes are welcome.

FB

[buffalo2]

Eammon you're so right (slowly, slowly etc) but it's hard to stay with it whilst biting one's tongue. Something that I've figured out though is that I don't always have all the background. More than once when learning the whole story I had to agree with what originally appeared to be flat out wrong. It's easy to take a snapshot and offer constructive criticism (and you know which part of that comes through strongest) but remember that those that you're judging may have come a long way to get to where they're at now, and aren't done yet.

Does this tolerance mean we're getting old? Or is it a matter of choosing one's battles?

 

[torribug]

I agree that slowly is the way to go, and maybe I haven't been in the troop long enough to be accepted (not quite two years as a parent, and a year and a half on committee, present every meeting, doing BORs almost every meeting). And you're right, Buffalo, I haven't been able to get the background info on why some folks think they should hold boys back for the sake of holding them back. Guess that's my frustration - there doesn't seem to BE a reason for it.

 

As I originally said, one of the best things about this troop is that I trust the leadership, and that means a lot to me, so I do pick my battles. As a matter of fact, I haven't waged a battle yet. Guess that's why I originally posted - I don't WANT a battle, just some advice on how I can help facilitate change in a nonconfrontational manner. Maybe that isn't possible for a few more years, so I can either accept the status quo or find another troop.

 

Unfortunately, this doesn't help some of the more motivated boys who may be held back just because they aren't the age that some of the leaders think they should be to achieve a certain rank. And for the record, we aren't talking about 12- or even 13-year-old Eagles. I agree that trail to Eagle is an adventure, not a race - but there are a few boys for whom scouting is their passion (attend every meeting, campout, and summer camp), and advancement comes naturally.

 

Cheers, The Bug

[Eamonn]

There can be no reason and there is no reason for holding a Scout back.It is wrong to do so and nothing will ever make it right.

I kinda think that most Scoutmasters in their heart of hearts know that. I could be wrong.

Why anyone would want to is beyond my comprehension.

The goal is for them to stop holding Scouts back. If possible without too much fuss.

Bug Old Chap, you are on the troop management committee. You and your fellow committee members really are in charge.

If I were in yours shoes, which of course I'm not. Here is how I would play this hand.

I would have a word with the committee chairman and suggest that the committee becomes trained. The training takes about three hours and if you contact your District Training Chairman, he or she ought to be able to arrange it.

I would also have a word with the Troop Committee Chair about inviting your Unit Commissioner to attend your meetings. Unit Commissioners love to be invited anywhere at times they feel very unloved. They do really like coffee and cookies. I don't know if at your meeting if the troop advancement chair makes a report or not. If he does you might ask why Scouts are being held back? When the Unit Commissioner hears this he will be shocked and say how this can't be.

If your advancement guy doesn't give a report it will be up to you to bring it up.

I would do it very apologetically, making it sound that I was only bringing it up to save everyone from future embarrassment. To add to the drama I would add that I have heard that some parents now know that holding Scouts back is wrong and they now know that they can appeal this to the Council and even to the National Office.I of course would not mention that the parents that know this are myself and my wife. I would again add that I was only bringing this up for the good of the troop.

If that fails, I would roll up a copy of the Scoutmaster Handbook and give the Scoutmaster a couple of good whacks with it.This might not help in reaching the goal. But it would make me feel a lot better. (Just Joking about the whacks - Even if it is a good idea!!)

Eamonn.