Incomplete merit badges

[dan]

boleta

No examination was required.

Does the merit badge require an examination?

 

[Bob White]

boleta,

You might re-examine the merit badge process and the blue card.

The scoutmasters signature is required prior to beginning the merit badge, not after the counselor has signed. The signature for afterwards is simply for a unit leader, it is on the scout's personal record portion of the card and acts as his receipt to prove that he turned the card in after completion.

 

As far as "in principle" and "real world" goes...in principle the adult leaders are expected to follow the real world advancement policies of the BSA. Also in the real world some adults do not live up to those principles. That is still not the scout's problem and the BSA does not allow you to penalize the scout for adult errors.

 

Hunt was right on the money. Instead of witholding the merit basge, follow the rules, show leadership and counsel the scout to complete the requirements, outside of the merit badge issue, if for no other reason than his own personal satisfaction that he met the challenge of the merit badge and now has the knowledge and skills that the requirements intended him to receive in the process.

 

The real world of scouting is what you make it. If you follow the program then that is your real world. If you don't follow the program then that is not really scouting.

[boleta]

Sorry, I understand the principle but just can't agree with the reality. Many of the MB counselors at summer camp are 15 or 16 year olds where a large number of them are supervised by a single adult without any Quality Control. If the boy clearly has not completed the requirements because the MB was given at a "giveaway" program (I hear the National Jambo MB Midway can be like this)and the troop leaders discover this, the mere fact that a blue card was signed should not allow for automatic signature by "a" unit leader.

One year, all scouts at Summer Camp got Blue Cards signed for Camping MB. All admitted that none cooked a trail meal for the patrol on a lightweight stove as required. The Camp Director was told of this after the Camp was over. The SM of our troop held the Blue Cards until the requirement was completed.

I think Hunt's idea of challenging the scout to come to an ethical decision of not accepting the MB is the ideal. But, if the Eagle required MBs are not "earned", then what's the point? Asking the Scout to do no more and no less is REQUIRED to earn the merit badge. If the SM learns that the counselor was not trustworthy and signed the card when this did not occur, I think he should have some discretion to not accept it. It is not a punishment when the scout did not do the requirements in the first place.

[boleta]

Dan,

The point is that the scouts sat passively for 4 hours and did NONE of the requirements to get the signed blue card. They did not Demonstrate the proper technique for CPR (it wasn't even taught). They did not Explain how they would obtain emergency assistance from the home. They did not have to prepare a first aid kit for their home. They did not teach a first aid skill to another scout. They were simply given signed blue cards for this important Eagle required MB.

[EagleInKY]

Boleta - I agree with you wholeheartedly. While I agree with the principle that Bob stands for, it doesn't fly with the Summer Camp program that we see. (Incidentally, I agree with it for Merit Badges earned on their own. I would never question the completion of a MB blue card signed by an approved counselor of our troop or district.)

 

For example, last year, we had scouts take Mammal Study. The counselor was an absolute embarrasment to the camp. He didn't teach the subject and didn't require the work to be done. I (and many others) brought it up with the Camp Director. He was stuck in a hard situation, he had a staffer quit over the weekend and he had to fill a spot. In retrospect, he realized that this instructor was a mistake. The instructor signed off completions for everyone, even though there was work that had to be done outside of camp. He didn't ask for proof that they had done it, he just signed them all off.

 

Luckily, our camp does not give blue cards to the scouts. They give us a different form, and it is given to the Scoutmaster. This allows us to review the forms before taking them home. I asked the director about these completions, and he essentially told me to "do what I had to do".

 

Therefore, we have designed a process to help with the situation. We assign an adult who is attending Summer Camp to be the "advisor" for each MB. It is his/her responsibility to monitor the progress of the scouts during the week. He also is aware of the status of partials and what is left to be done for them.

 

At the next troop meeting after camp, we provide each boy with a report of their MB status. The status for each MB can be "complete", "partial" or "review" If they truly completed the MB at camp, we don't require any more. If it is reported as a partial, then that is the status. If a MB counselor at camp says that it was complete, but we don't believe it was, we indicate it as under "review". The advisor and the scout work to verify that the appropriate work gets done.

 

We find this to be fair, honest and a very workable process. The only scout that gets "punished", in Bob's eyes, is a scout that didn't do the work to begin with, and then doesn't make the effort to complete it after camp.

[dan]

cut off my post, must be telling me, not to post, so I will not. Have a good week folks.(This message has been edited by dan)

[Bob White]

Boleta, First I understand your feeling but you must realize that you are punishing the scout for the counselors error. It is the Scoutmasters responsibility to approve the counselor BEFORE the scout begins to work on the merit badge. That includes summer camp. If you don't feel that the counselors are qualified then do something about it other than violating the advancement policies. Create change in the camp or do not give the boys blue cards for merit badges you see are not being done properly.

 

But the fact is that the SM or other unit leaders do not approve merit badges AFTER the counselor has signed off. At that point the badge is earned. PERIOD. There are no take backs. The second signature does not approve the badge, or accept the badge, it merely gives the scout a receipt that the record was turned over to the troop. That is all it does. You need to read the policies for merit badges, you are not understanding the procedures or their purpose.

 

"(I hear the National Jambo MB Midway can be like this)" Well gee, why have rules and procedures at all? Why not just base all our actions and opinions on rumors and second hand information. Looking into the BSA resources isn't nearly as fun.

 

 

EagleInKY,

Your beef is with the council summer camp program. It is not the scout's fault. Either get the root of the problem fixed, or do not give the scout a blue card. Because once a registered, approved counselor signs it, it is a done deal. That is real world in the BSA. You make not like that, but you have no authority to do anything other than accept the advancement and complain to council about the counselor.

 

The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual is pretty much required reading for this conversation. There are a lot of opinions being presented here that have no relationship to the policies and programs of the BSA.

[boleta]

Bob White,

I have the advancement committee p & p manual in front of me. It clearly states that "scouts must be tested individually and they must meet all the requirements". MUST. You continue to insist that a signed blue card is the evidence of this and that it is then too late to intervene. I submit it is not.

You feel a scout is being punished if the blue card is withheld when it has been signed, even in the face of a failure of the counselor to do his job and a failure of the scout to do as required above. Even when the Troop leadership knows with absolute certainty that the failure has occurred. I think there is a more significant violation of the spirit of scouting when the blue card is submitted without following the above guidelines.

Since an error has to be committed- submit a MB where the Scout has not met all of the requirements (MUST), OR hold the blue card and ask the scout to complete them, it might as well be the error that ends up with the scout legitimately fulfilling the requirement. Choose your poison.

Clearly, these problems with merit badge camps and summer camps should be discussed by the troop committee, SM and Advancement Chair so that a clear procedure can be worked out in advance. I like the suggestions of EagleInKy. If in doubt, maybe the counselors should be asked to indicate those completed requirements for the badge but not to sign the Blue Card until reviewed by the Advancement Chair or SM.

[Bob White]

Finish reading it boleta, it says the merit badge is earned once the counselor signs it, and that there is no review process on a merit badge. You cannot just pick part of the policy to follow you must folow the entire section.

 

You do not "submit" a merit badge the merit badge is earned when the counselor says it is, you record it. What you "think" is irrelevant to the rules of the BSA advancement program. The policies are what the BSA says they are not what you think they should be.

 

If you are sure that the counselor doesn't follow the program correctly them the Scoutmaster should offer the scout another counselor when he gives him the signed blue card, and then inform the council of the problem so that the counselor can be removed.

 

But you cannot send a scout to a specific counselor and then disregard the merit badge because he went to him/her.

 

 

[evmori]

I think the key word here is "earned". If a MB counselor gave a Scout a signed completed blue card & the Scout didn't complete all the requirements, the Scout didn't "earn" the badge, it was "given" to him. If this happened to a Scout in my Troop, the badge would not be awarded until it was "earned".

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[boleta]

Bob White,

I acknowledge that you are absolutely correct in your explanation of the rule. This will not stop the adult leadership of troops insisting that the Scout complete the requirements when it is known that they were not done. I guess it depends on what your definition of "earned" is.

[EagleInKY]

Bob, you are correct, my beef is with the camp. That's exactly why we put a process in place that is fair to the scouts, and allows them to complete the merit badges according to the requirements, nothing more, nothing less. Ed had a very good point about "earning" vs. "giving" merit badges.

 

You said "Either get the root of the problem fixed, or do not give the scout a blue card. Because once a registered, approved counselor signs it, it is a done deal. That is real world in the BSA."

 

Actually, that's not the real world, at least not here. As I mentioned, our camp doesn't use blue cards. The boys show up for their sessions. At the end of the week, the counselor provides a form stating what they have completed at camp. No blue card is exchanged.

 

Furthermore, how in the world can a Scoutmaster be expected to approve the counselors at Summer Camp. The majority of them are great. It's the one or two problem ones each year that cause the issue. I have no way of knowing ahead of time who those might be. At the pre-camp meeting they often don't know who the instructors will be. Even if they did, the chances of me knowing anything about them would be slim. In the case I mentioned from last year, the counselor was assigned the night before. There is no way I could have imagined or planned for that situation.

 

Yes, my beef is with the camp staff. But I don't want to be too hard on them. I've been there myself (3 years of camp staff). It's a tough job. Your dealing with underpaid labor that you hope does a good job because they want to be there. But, sometimes they don't work out. You learn from those mistakes and problably don't hire them back next year. In a perfect world, everyone would live up to their expectations, and we could follow the procedures as you stated.

[Bob White]

Boleta, and insist you should. The problem is your are holding the wrong person responsible. It is not the scout's job to see to it that the counselor does the job correctly. That happy task belongs to the troop and the district/council. It is the District /council advancement committees who ultimately approved the counselor, but it was the scoutmaster who knowingly sent the boy to that specific counselor. But the only one you have chosen to penalize is the boy.

 

If the council did not select and train a good counselor, shame on them. They deserve your wrath. Forget about "this should be discussed by the troop committee" ...take action. Contact the Council advancement committee tell them to do a better job, wipe the counselors name off your list. Call the counselor, find out if he follow the requirements, scold them if they didn't. Tell them they have a responsibility to do the job correctly, they owe that to the scouts they counsel.

 

But the scout did what he was told. He saw the person he was told to see, he did the work he was given to do. He brought back a signed blue from an approved, registered, counselor.

 

The rules are clear.

1. You cannot review a merit badge.

2. Once the card is signed by an approved counselor the badge is earned.

3. The responsibility for merit badges rests solely with the merit badge counselor (article X, clause 13 of the Advancement by-laws)

4. The second unit leader signature on a blue card does not approve the merit badge, t was done by the counselor, it only signs the receipt for the paperwork for the scout's record.

 

As you pointed out my explanation of the rules was "absolutely correct" (your own words), the problem as you accurately pointed out is that this isn't stopping your unit leaders from what they are doing. And that is a real shame.

 

If the scout had the same resources in front of him that you have he would know that the unit is punishing him for mistakes made by adults, including his own unit leaders. Fortunately for you, he doesn't know that you have chosen to this to him rather than address the real problem with the errant adults.

 

EagleInKY,

I do not know what a perfect world would be on earth and doubt that it can be obtain in this mortal coil. So lets just do the best we can. If we know the problem is with the adult counselors let's try to fix that problem rather than create a new one by changing the rules on the scout who only did as he was was told by his troop leaders and merit badge counselors.

 

No matter how little the staff is paid the scout is paid less. Let's not use such a meaningless measure as an excuse to ingnore the real problem.

[Hunt]

Here's my suggestion of a little dialogue that might solve this issue to most people's satisfaction:

Scout: Mr. SM, would you sign this Mammal Study Blue Card from camp?

SM: Sure, Scout--once the counselor has signed it, by the rules, the badge is earned. But it seems I heard that the counselor didn't actually have the scouts do all the requirements of that badge--is that true?

Scout: Well, yeah, we didn't actually do all of them.

SM: It seems to me that since a Scout is Trustworthy, you wouldn't feel right putting this badge on your sash or receiving it at a Court of Honor unless you knew you'd done all the requirements. That wouldn't really show Scout Spirit, would it?

Scout: I guess not.

SM: Here's my suggestion: why don't you do the missing requirements, and show them to me. After that, we'll record the badge and present it at the Court of Honor, and we can all feel good about it.

Scout: OK.

 

I think in the vast majority of cases, the Scout would go along with this suggestion--and he would feel good about it. For the few that didn't (ie, claimed falsely that the requirements had been done, or insisted that the "letter of the law" required the SM to hand over the MB), well, you'd have to give them the badge. But it would be fair to remember the exchange later when asked to sign off Scout Spirit.

[Bob White]

Hunt,

You are making the same error as boleta,

 

The Scoutmaster must sign the blue card BEFORE the scout meets with the counselor, and the counselor signs AFTER the merit badge is earned.

 

A better conversation would be:

 

Jimmy: Hi Mr. Scoutmaster I have decided to work on my Mammal Study merit badge. May I have a blue card and the contact information on a counselor.

 

SM: Sure jimmy, what got you interested in Mammal studies?

 

Jimmy: We have been doing some work in biology class and a friend of mine mentioned that he had the merit badge. It sounded interesting so I wanted to see about earning it.

 

SM: Thats great Jimmy, do you have the book yet?

 

Jimmy: Not yet, is there one in the troop library?

 

SM: Better check with Tommy on that he's the Librarian. Here is a counselor that I'm sure will do a good job, it fact this might even be your teacher, I know she's at your school. Let me write her name and phone number on the card. Don't forget you need to take a buddy with you to every session.

 

I'm anxious to hear how it goes, let me know once you have your first meeting okay?

 

Jimmy: OK, Thanks. Tell me again what I do with the blue card.

 

SM: It goes to every merit badge session with you until you finish the work. Your counselor will keep a portion for her records and you bring the rest to me or the advancement chair, we will sign your section as a receipt and give it to you, and we keep the last section for the troop records. Good Luck Jimmy.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)