EAGLE SCOUT Rank Application Questions

[Greeneagle5]

There's a question on the National Eagle Scout Rank App. that reads :

Had you completed 5th grade upon joining (a Troop ) ? ___Y ,___N

 

Is there a wrong answer ? My son joined a Troop in February,2001 while in the 5th grade. He is now in 8th grade and just completed his Eagle Service Project.

 

Thanks,

 

Greeneagle5

[Bob White]

"is there a wrong answer?"

 

Yes, if you don't tell the truth, that would be wrong.

 

The BSA wants to establish that the scout met the membership requirements at the time he joined. The best thing to do is to answer all the questions honestly and completely.

[Marty_Doyle]

A boy can join Boy Scouts if he:

is 11 years old, or

has completed the fifth grade, or

earned the Arrow of Light in Cub Scouts.

The Arrow of Light requirements include being either 10.5 years old, or six months past the completion of fourth grade.

So one may infer from the question that a boy needs to have completed the fifth grade before he can join Boy Scouts, but there are two acceptable alternative "paths".

 

[dsteele]

I'm not a spokesman for the Boy Scouts of America and neither is anyone else here.

 

However, I think the question has more to do with trying to determine how many 5th graders turn 11 during fifth grade than after.

 

Marty quotes older Boy Scout joining requirements. They have been updated in the past couple of years, but are close. To be a Boy Scout a Scout must have completed the Arrow of Light, or have completed the 5th grade, or be 11 years old. Any one of the three conditions gets a boy in a troop. The question is, at the street level, do we recruit boys from the 5th grade mid-year -- they qualify if they're 11 -- or wait? If most boys entering troops are 11, but not yet done with 5th grade, the answer is an easy "yes."

 

DS

 

Bob White is correct in that the truthful answer is correct. The truth is what the BSA is looking for.

 

D

[Greeneagle5]

Sorry...... for the poor choice of words in forming my question.....Arrow of Light qualifies my son, even though he had not completed the 5th grade and was not yet 11 y.o. at the time. Question was a little un-nerving...thanks for the help.....we're back on the Eagle track.

 

Greeneagle5

 

[Twocubdad]

I think the membership policy has the potential to create some problems on the Webelos side. Perhaps that's the info that BSA is trying to collect with the questions (although I think an Eagle application is an odd place to gather it.)

 

Depending on the age requirement for starting school in your area, most boys turn 11 sometime during the 5th grade. In our area the school age cutoff is October 1. So our boys are turning 11 anytime from the fall of the 5th grade through the summer and first couple months of the 6th grade.

 

Since part of the Webelos-to-Boy Scout transition is to crossover the boys early enough in the spring that they get a few months in the troop under their belts prior to summer camp, better than half our Webelos crossed over last months solely because they had earned their Arrow of Light. They were neither 11 nor had completed the 5th grade.

 

The potential problem is what do you do with the boys who don't earn their AoL and are not yet 11? Our Webelos dens dissolve March 1 when the boys cross over. I can't see a Webelos leader continuing to meet to accommodate one boy who doesn't meet the Boy Scout joining requirements.

 

Fortunately, we've not had that problem as all our guys got their AoL. We did have one Scout who joined the pack last fall as a Webelos II. At the time, I advised him and his parents that earning the AoL in 6 months would would be an aggressive goal, or he could simply look at his time in Webelos to get to know the other Scouts and get ready to join Boy Scouts in March. I'll have to change my advice to boys in that situation. Unfortunately, it may mean that depending on their birthday, they will have to earn the AoL or have the possibility of sitting out a couple months during the spring. I can't imagine that is the route BSA intends.

[NJCubScouter]

Marty says:

 

A boy can join Boy Scouts if he:

is 11 years old, or

has completed the fifth grade, or

earned the Arrow of Light in Cub Scouts.

 

DS replies:

 

Marty quotes older Boy Scout joining requirements. They have been updated in the past couple of years, but are close. To be a Boy Scout a Scout must have completed the Arrow of Light, or have completed the 5th grade, or be 11 years old. Any one of the three conditions gets a boy in a troop.

 

I read these several times to see what the difference was, and I don't see one (other than stating the options in reverse order.) Both Marty and DS state the same three elements and place the all-important "OR" between each one -- meaning that a boy is eligible as long as he meets any of the three criteria.

 

According to usscouts.org, the last change in the eligibility requirements (Scout Badge requirement number 1) was made effective April 1, 1999 (happy fifth anniversary, almost.) However, that site also has the pre-4/1/99 version and there really is no change in substance, just in the wording used. According to http://www.troop97.net/bsahist1.htm#bsdiv , the last substantive change in the joining requirements was made in 1988:

 

"For almost 40 years, the entry age was 12. The BSA lowered the entry age to 11 in 1949. In 1972, the entry age was slightly lowered again, to 10-1/2 if a boy had finished Fifth Grade. In 1988, the age limit was further adjusted to allow a boy to join either at age 11, or upon completion of Fifth Grade regardless of age, or upon earning the Webelos Arrow of Light award (a boy must be either 10-1/2 to earn the Arrow of Light or [since 1998] he can also earn the Arrow of Light if it has been six months since he completed Fourth Grade)."

 

(Both of the web sites mentioned are unofficial, but I see no reason to believe that either is incorrect in the matters quoted, and I know that usscouts.org in particular has a good reputation for accuracy.)

 

As for the purpose behind questions on the Eagle application (which I just looked at), I think they serve at least two different purposes, one being general information-gathering unrelated to whether the particular application will be approved, and the other being to determine when the applicant became eligible to be a Boy Scout. It does ask some other questions which on their face would seem solely related to information-gathering, such as "Were you a Cub Scout?" "Were you a Webelos Scout?" "Date of First Class Scout board of review" -- and the same question for Star, but not Tenderfoot, Second Class or Life. On the other hand, I don't think it's a coincidence that the applicant's eligibility to join a troop when he joined it can be determined by reading the application. It asks for Date joined a Boy Scout troop, Did you earn the Arrow of Light Award, and Had you completed fifth grade upon joining?, and of course it also asks for Date of Birth. If Date of Birth is less than 11 years prior to Date joined, and the answer to the fifth grade and Arrow of Light questions are both no, it would be reasonable for an applicant to expect that a question might be raised at some point. That combination of answers is the only one that would be "wrong" in the sense that it might suggest a possible defect in the applicant's eligibility for Eagle, which is what I think Greeneagle5 meant by "wrong answer." I suspect that Greeneagle5 already knew that the truth is required on the application regardless of the consequences.

[Hunt]

But what would happen if he, in fact, joined when he was 10 and a half without getting the AOL or finishing 5th grade? Assuming everything else was in order, would that really cause him not to get his Eagle rank? How could you fix the problem 3, 4, or more years later?

[Marty_Doyle]

I pretty much copied the requirements from page 439 of the current Webelos book,

just leaving out the part about being less 18 years old.

We are going over with the requirements with all of our second year Webelos in the Pack, since they spent last weekend building a tee-pee, hiking, "orienteering", setting up camp with a Troop, and have a conference with the Scoutmaster, which finished the last requirements for their AoL.

The Scoutmaster and I went over this to determine the best time to hold a bridging ceremony - as soon as possible but still allowing them time to "show off" their AoL.

I should have cited the page number earlier, but the whole Wheeler quoting and citing thing ......................................

say, Dave, where were you when Wheeler was posting all of that stuff? And now that you are posting, no Wheeler. Never on the forums at the same time. Hmmmmmmmmm................(This message has been edited by Marty_Doyle)

[Twocubdad]

NJ -- I skimmed over Marty's post and made the same mistake that DS probably did. Where he says that you must be 10 1/2 to earn the AoL, I mistakenly thought he was saying you must be 10 1/2 to join the troop and assumed he was quoting the old requirements.

 

Having not looked at an Eagle app since the Nixon administration, I'm somewhat surprised at the kinds of things it is asking for. I'm wondering if my son (who just passed 30 days as a Boy Scout) should get an application and start recording all those dates as he goes along.

[packsaddle]

Twocubdad, having gone through this process with numerous boys (successfully) I would answer, "yes" to your question. More importantly, make sure that the dates on the Eagle application agree with those in council records. If they don't, make the necessary corrections beforehand.

 

I am interested in the answer to Hunt's question because we just had a boy join who is not 11 and has not completed 5th grade. He also is not a cub scout. The DE was informed of all this and we asked if it was a big problem and he winked and said he'd take care of it. Can I accept the word of this pro or do I need to hold the boy's application for a while? Technically, as I see it, he has not really joined.

[scoutldr]

That's good advice...we also advise that as soon as a scout makes Life, he take a copy of his Troopmaster record down to COuncil and make sure they match the official records. When a scout is 17 years, 11 months old is not the time for surprises.

[FScouter]

I just want to clarify the statements made about the Arrow of Light award and age 10 1/2. Reaching the age of 10 1/2 is NOT a requirement for the award. The requirement is to be ACTIVE AS A WEBELOS FOR 6 MONTHS. The 6 months of activity must occur anytime after reaching age 10, or after completing the 4th grade. It is entirely conceivable that a boy could earn AOL before age 10 1/2, or not earn it until after age 10 1/2, depending on his period of activity and when he completed the 4th grade. There is nothing magical about age 10 1/2.

 

[NWScouter]

The youngest age you can join Scouts is determined by the age you complete Fourth Grade. There is quite a range for example when I was young, you could enter kindergarten if you were 5 by November 1st. The school district my kids were in they had to 5 by September 1st. Then there are ones who test in earlier and not to mention any that may skip a grade or are home schooled. Then when you finish fourth grade, some parts of the country school ends in May while some of our districts out here end in late June.

If schools end in May you could cross over in November or December and be closer to 10 than 11.

I doubt that anyone would be denied his Eagle based on the age he entered Boy Scout.

[packsaddle]

Thanks NJ, but for some reason, I just feel cautious about this. Maybe I just find the outlook of Vonnegut or Murphy to work more often than not.