A question of Eagle Palms

[Proud Eagle]

If SM confrences are conducted on the 1st Monday of each month, and the only thing needed to participate is show up, I think that covers it. If there is a problem with the kid attending on the 1st Monday, then an alternative is needed. If he needs it sooner for some reason, I can see making special arrangements would be appropriate. Also, if he has to make a reservation ahead of time, that could be a problem. However, if it is known that the SM is available during the 1st meeting of the month, and all you have to do is show up and say, "I need a conference" then I think there was ample opportunity already provided to this Scout.

[Fat Old Guy]

I having some problems with the whole concept here. First we say that advancement is driven by the Scout and he advances at his own rate. Next, we say that we expect Scouts to contact strangers to arrange for merit badge stuff. Lastly, Bob White says that we can't expect a Scout to say, "Hey, I've done everything for 1st Class. Now I need to go talk to Scoutmaster Friendly, a man that isn't a stranger and I've known for many months."

 

On the flip side of that, there is the idea that the Scoutmaster should be talking to all of the Scouts on a periodic basis just to see how things are going in and out of Scouting. Much like a priest talks to his parishioners to see how things are going for them.

 

I do have a bit of a problem with "accomodating" the Scout's schedule. Should we conduct a BOR at 4 PM on a Wednesday because a Scout has some sporting conflict on Sunday evening when everyone else does their BoR? Doesn't that tie into the whole "importance of Scouting" issue? If Scouting is just something to do between other activites, is the Scout really getting anything out of the program or being active?

 

My son's basketball coach was complaining about one of the players on the team who put basketball and the team at a very low priority. This kid also wrestled and "had" to practive four days a week. The basketball team only had one practice a week at that time but this kid would skip basketball practice if he had something else to do one evening that kept him from wrestling practice. Of course, neither the player nor the kid understood why he didn't get much playing time, after all "this is just basketball and wrestling is important" (direct quote from mom).

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Rculver, once I get my resource books back I will give you some specific passages to support what I wrote. Until then perhaps I can shed some light on what I said by explaining some things not found in specific passages, but are attitudes that are expressed in the overall feel and flow of the scouting program.

 

First let me warn you that to get the most out of a forum of this type you need to be good at using mental filters. There are folks responding to this thread who have a) never been trained in the BSA program b) never understood the training of the BSA program c) ignore what they did understand d) were never successful at what they did e) actuallly know, use, and practice the leadership skills of scouting.

 

Depending on what your goals are you need to carefully filter what any of us write.

 

If you are looking for understanding the program better there are some posters here who can do that. If what you want are posters who will substantiate what your troop does now, there are a number of posters who will do that too. I am not one of them, so depending on your goal you may want to quit reading now.

 

The relationship of the Scoutmaster to the Scout is one of mentor, coach, counselor, and friend. It is not a boss/worker relationship. Would you tell your son that if he needs to talk about anything that you are available the second Wednesday of each month form 6PM to 7:30PM? Would you tell a friend that if they ever want to visit with you that you will be at Denny's restaurant for breakfast on the third Tuesday of each month from 6Am to 7AM be sure to schedule an appointment because you have a number of friends to talk to as well? If your minister came up to you and said, "you look like you could use someone to listen to you, I'm available from noon till 1pm on the first Saturday of each month, be sure to make an appointment", how comforting would that be to you?

 

Don't make personal growth a scheduled meeting. The SM handbook will tell you this is an informal visit that can take place anytime, anywhere. It is a opportunity for the SM to learn more about the scout. This is for the SM not the boy. It is so the SM can understand the Scout better,

so the SM can do his or her job better. It is a personal, friendly, counseling session where the spririt of scouting can be shared based on the needs and characteristics of the individual scout.

 

Please do not turn this into a business meeting. "your next requirement to complete your advancement is to meet with your SM for a Scoutmaster Conference, he will be available the first Monday of each month for you to meet with him."

BLECH!

 

"Hi Todd, Your doing a great job as Patrol Leader, can you sit down with me for a few minutes I liked to hear how things are going with you." THAT is how a scoutmaster conference takes place. It's a casual informal conversation with a purpose. That is how we train leaders to do it. If it were the scouts responsibility we would train them how to do it, just as we do all other scout skills.

 

The same with the BOR. We train adults how to do them because it's THEIR JOB. The BOR helps troop committees get to know the scouts they serve and to help them evaluate the effectiveness of the troop leadership and program. It also lets them see a scout develop over the years. The BOR helps the committee more than the scout. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual will tell you that it is the COMMITTEE'S job to hold frequent, and convenient BORs. This is to be a friendly, non threatening conversation.

Its fine to schedule them, but my opinion is one a month in a active troop of any real size (20 scouts and up) is not enough. I have always seen it arranged that once the board is assembled the SPL or SM will go over to a scout and invite hime to meet with the board. The program is designed to review scouts who are not advancing as well as those that are. So if the board has assembeled we review advancing scouts first, and when they are done, or if there aren't any, then we select other scouts to go chat with the committee.

 

The important thing to remember here is "who is serving who" are the scouts there for us? Or are we there for them? If they are there for us then make them cross whatever obstacles and follow whatever artificial protocol you want. But if we are there for them, then treat them as a guest, as a friend, and not as an employee or as a munchkin who must ask to see the great OZ of the troop.

 

I hope this helps

BW

[acco40]

Respect cuts both ways. When I'm talking to my wife and my son tells me he wants to talk with me, I tell him that he will have to wait and depending on my mood, may give him a lecture about interrupting conversations.

 

In the SM - Scout relationship the same implies. I try to make myself available to the Scout. The last SM conference I gave was at the swimming pool after the Scout just finished his swimming MB and thus his 1st Class swimming requirements. I jokingly told him he didn't have to be in uniform! The Scout is a shy individual and I offered up the situation of having a SM conference at the pool. He accepted. However, if a Scout barges into a committee meeting and asks that I give him a SM conference right now I will poliitely decline.

 

Currently, I have two boys who have completed all of their Star rank requirements except for the "show scout spirit", SM conference, and BOR. Do they know that? I purposely personally gave them a printed copy of the individual progress report from TroopMaster with that information. I told them the COH is in two weeks. I told them that if they needed to see me or my wife (advancement chair, sets up BORs) for anything just let me know. I got no response. You can lead a horse to water ...

 

Now, I know these kids. If I want to get to know them better, I will (and have) scheduled a SM conference with them. IMO, they have to show some initiative and awareness of their advancement situation. They may be clueless or just not that driven to advance. I have no problem with that.

[Bob White]

Acco40,

I have no idea what the relevance is in the story of the scout interrupting a meeting. rlculver never mentioned that. In fact he pointed out on a couple occasions that this was a good scout, active, good leadership skills.

 

The mom may have been abusive, but the troop serves the boy not the mom so you need to be able to look past that.

 

They have to show initiative? Didn't they? They did the work that the handbook required them to do. They did the skills, they earned the merit badges, they did the service hours, they did the leadership. Now it's time for the adults to do their part. Sorry, but it was not the scout who lacked the initiative.

[acco40]

I respectfully disagree. I won't use your "lecturing" tone Bob but:

 

I'm sure you can find in many, many, many BSA reference materials that the Scouts are encouraged to be self-motivated in their desire to learn and in their opportunities to advance. A Scout learns at his own speed and should not be pressured to advance on someone else's timetable. Part of their advancement requirements are to participate in a SM conference. For the purposes of advancement, they should initiate it.

 

From the perspective of the SM, they should allow the greatest opportunities for the boys to pursue advancement by having a well-rounded annual program and by making sure the opportunities of SM conferences and BOHs are available. From the SM perspective, he (or she) may initiate a conference at any time for many different reasons (build trust, recognize achievement, goal setting, gather personal insights, etc.). I don't call a SM conference for the purpose of advancement.

[Bob White]

"I don't call a SM conference for the purpose of advancement.

 

That's unfortunate, since the program teaches that you should. Check out the advancement video from the Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training course.

[EagleInKY]

I usually initiate the SCs. I have had a boy come up and request it for BOR purposes on a few occasions. I've also had boys come up and ask to talk to me about advancement (usually around why they're not signed off for something).

 

The conferences usually take place on the same night as the BOR. But, it isn't always the case. If I were better organized, I would get more of them done ahead of time. If there is any doubt in my mind whether I'm ready to send the scout to the BOR, I make sure to do it ahead of time.

[Twocubdad]

If rlculver is still around, I'd be interested in an update. What was the outcome of the appeal to national? Did they list any grounds for approving/denying the appeal? Were there any specific instructions to the troop advancement committee?

[rlculver415]

Sorry I've been away so long. To answer Bob White's question about citing the source of my/our concept that the Scout initiates the SM conference - I was just going to answer for myself, but decided to check where the others got their (same) bright idea. I was told this was the correct procedure at a Council training session for Troop Committees. I recall because it hasn't been that long ago, and because it was a direct answer to a direct question. I suspect that the rest of us who were trained locally were told the same. The people I asked were ones I knew were trained out of Council, even out of state. They all said that's where they learned of it. If this is in error, it is a national error and not just a poorly informed Council/District/Unit. One reason why I am interested in a written documentation of your reasons. I believe printed words carry more weight than spoken whenever there are disputes.

 

Also, I stated in two previous posts that the boy is not responsible for arranging a BOR, but the SM is. I'd to make that very clear. I hate misunderstandings - well, I'm hating them a whole lot more in recent months!

 

We do try to make things easier on the boys by having regularly-scheduled days for SM conferences and BORs, but they are by no means exclusive to just those days. I know the SM has had conferences at campouts, on the way to Round Table, at his home, the boy's home, etc. Kids talk, and so do their parents. He's a super Scoutmaster, in my opinion, and tries his best. The committee has also held BORs on other days and at other places. Most recently, an Eagle BOR was held on Scout Sunday after worship. (Due to the ubiquitous "scheduling problems".) They've also taken place at campouts. This is not unusual for us, and the boys know it.

 

Twocubdad --

 

As far as I can say, District and Council are unhappy with National. I can say no more, because the issue is not resolved between them yet. There were no grounds cited for approving the appeal, nor were there specific instructions for the advancement committee other than this:

 

Hold a SM conference on one day and the BOR on the following day, for each Palm.

 

To me, it sounds as if National wants us to give the boy the Palms - but they didn't exactly say so. Advancement referred the matter to a less-biased District Advancement chair.

 

This issue is not over. There's more I'd like to say, but don't dare until it is finally resolved one way or another.

 

My purpose now is to learn where I may have been wrong, to be sure that another episode like this is averted, as best as I can. As I said, we all sincerely thought our interpretation of the Eagle Palm requirement for Gold and up was correct - three months must elapse after the last Palm was AWARDED (ie - BOR day) before a boy is eligible for the next.

 

I await all y'all's knowledge. It is, after all, why I haunt this site. Thank you.

[Fat Old Guy]

Bob White, who welcomes all interruptions from his children, said, "Would you tell your son that if he needs to talk about anything that you are available the second Wednesday of each month form 6PM to 7:30PM?"

 

No but my son knows that except in extreme circumstances that I'm only avaiable for chit chat between 5 PM and bedtime. There have been times that he's woken me up at 2 AM and been sent packing and there have been other times that he's woken me up at 2 AM and we've gone downstairs, eaten a box of Thin Mints and talked about the troubled life of a 13 year old.

 

"Would you tell a friend that if they ever want to visit with you that you will be at Denny's restaurant for breakfast on the third Tuesday of each month from 6Am to 7AM be sure to schedule an appointment because you have a number of friends to talk to as well?"

 

It isn't unusual for friends to have standard meeting times and places. My wife and her bestest friend have dinner every Tuesday evening. If another friend wanted to go out on Tuesday, I'm sure that my wife would say, "Can we make it Thursday?"

 

"If your minister came up to you and said, "you look like you could use someone to listen to you, I'm available from noon till 1pm on the first Saturday of each month, be sure to make an appointment", how comforting would that be to you?"

 

Gee, a good buddy of mine is a Baptist minister and, except in extreme case, people who want to talk with him make an appointment.

 

The SM Conference may indeed be informal conversation and the SM may indeed initiate it at times, a good example when he notices that a Scout isn't playing well with others. However, I'm still looking for anything printed that says that the SM initiates the conferences that are required for advancement.

[Fat Old Guy]

" As I said, we all sincerely thought our interpretation of the Eagle Palm requirement for Gold and up was correct - three months must elapse after the last Palm was AWARDED (ie - BOR day) before a boy is eligible for the next."

 

That's not a difficult interpretation to make since that is exactly what the "Boy Scout requirements 2004" handbook says.

 

As I said before, I'm waiting for chapter and verse from a printed handbook that is readily available at the Scout Shop. I don't have a video library and even if I did, watching a video tape when one has a question about policy is not very practical.

 

 

[Bob White]

I think you have answered your own question rlculver. if the Conference is the SMs responsibility,(and I agree that it is) and it did not take place, you cannot fault the scout. You said his attendance was good so there was opportuntiy for the SM to get the job done. Not all trainers follow the syllabus sad to say. Some teach "their" method, or their "habits" rather than the program.

 

That is why I asked if you knew of any BSA resources to support your the troops method.

 

Had I been wrong about the methods national intends for these advancement steps then there would have been no hesitation on national's part to support the decision of the troop,right?

 

Bob

[Fat Old Guy]

Bobo Blanco opined, "Not all trainers follow the syllabus sad to say. Some teach "their" method, or their "habits" rather than the program."

 

So the trainers in at least two councils were doing things incorrectly? That stretches credibility.

 

"Had I been wrong about the methods national intends for these advancement steps then there would have been no hesitation on national's part to support the decision of the troop,right?"

 

Yeah, sure, you betcha. I think that it is still a matter of the folks at national said, "Well he did the work and it will be a PR nightmare if we enforce the rules. So, let's stretch a point or two and allow it."

 

We are still waiting for chapter and verse that supports your position.

 

Of course you aren't going to see this (snicker, snort, har!) but maybe one of your "friends" (chortle, guffaw) will tell you about it.

 

 

[rlculver415]

Bob White --

 

I hesitate to say that we've had another misunderstanding. I never meant to imply that the SMCs were the responsibility of the SM to initiate. I'm not sure I agree with that, yet. I was trying to point out that our SM is willing to have a conference with a scout wherever or whenever, should the regularly scheduled day be inconvenient. This is something our Scout of 6+ years of membership knew AND took advantage of occassionally. This is the main reason why I was surprised by his mother's reaction: "What?! MY SON'S supposed to arrange the SM conference?!" (As if she didn't know...)

 

SM does initiate conferences occassionally, just not always. Usually this is for disciplinary purposes, or if a scout is troubled, or to find out why a scout is not advancing, and sometimes because something wonderful has happened in a scout's life.

 

There is so much I'd like to say, other doubts I'd like to express, but am gagged for the while. Maybe these will become unimportant over time?

 

I am a by-the-book sort of person. I'll gladly correct any error or misconception on my part. I don't wear my "trained" patch just to show I am a marathon sitter! This is why I am still eagerly waiting for your "scripture references".