JLT required for Star?

[Bob White]

Sorry Acco, but your comparison is flawed. You see advancement and membership, while both are controlled by National policies, have different parameters. The membership policies allow a charter organization to be more restrictive but not less restrictive than the National requirements. This would allow, as in your example, a Catholic Church that was a Charter Organization to restrict membership in their units to Catholics. The advancement policies, on the other hand, do not allow anyone to add to or delete from the requirements as listed in the official handbooks. That would prohibit you from being allowed to require TJLT unless it was a requirement set by the National Executive Board of the BSA.

[MollieDuke]

Thanks for all the posts so far. I had heard this as a rumor, but didn't know for sure. As my son had just gotten his Life BOR out of the way and the same night became SPL, it didn't really apply to us except I didn't want it to affect his records in any way or those coming after him.

 

I knew of the part in the SM handbook, and I've also seen some stuff my son has gotten off this site which was also good.

 

SPL T15 has a wonderful point, however. I also love the analogy of the "honorable trio". I do think it would be a good idea to do the junior conference with the SM as a Star and the week long as a Life then on to Eagle. Great idea! Good way to break it up and still get it before Eagle.

 

My son is to have the week long this summer, I think, so it'll be done. I'm glad to know it'll come in handy for Eagle, which he really wants. Good ammunition for making him go to another week long event. (He's basically a homebody--likes his own bed)

[Senior_Patrol_Leader_T15]

JLTC is a great program, not many that I know that went completed their ticket, so tell him before he goes to pay attention and don't ever put his ticket aside to work on later.

 

How old is your son?

 

[EagleInKY]

I think JLT is a great program - both in the troop and at the council level. But, I would hate to see it become a requirement for rank advancement. It may be impossible for some scouts to participate in the council level week-long camp. For example, we are unable to send any of our guys to it this summer because one of the weeks conflicts with school (we have an extended year/shorter summer) and the second time conflicts with our troop's week at summer camp. I could also see conflicts with boys who have to work or participate in other activities that tie up the summer (band camp, football, etc.).

 

However, I do think troops can introduct their own level of quality control. We offer JLT in the troop every year. We "require" PL and SPL to participate. The boys know this and agree to it if they run for those offices. I see it is as a responsibility of these positions to participate in the troop's JLT program, so I have no problem making this a requirement.

[KA6BSA]

The Scoutmaster making sure JLT is offered to his troops youth leaders is part of Quality Unit.

[acco40]

Bob, do you agree or disagree that a Troop may have JLT training a requirement for certain (or all) positions of responsiblity? I not debating the merit of such a requirement. It is my understanding that a Troop may have requirements for positions of responsibility (i.e. tenure, age, rank, training, etc.).

[dan]

A clarification the course that Senior_Patrol_Leader_T15 took and did a ticket for was and is White Stag. The JLTC course does not include a "ticket". You can find more info on the White Stag program at http://www.pinetreeweb.com/whitestg.htm

So Senior_Patrol_Leader_T15 how is your ticket coming along?

If the BSA decided to put in a requirement that TJLT is required, I say it should be for First Class, Star seem a little late in the game to me.

 

[Eagledad]

Great Day All

 

Boy, I have a problem with much of this. I need to start by saying I am the Council JLT Chairman. My responsibilities are encouraging and development of all the JLT programs in our Council.

 

The problem in the past few years has been that the BSA has kind of ignored JLT in the Unit. JLTC or Brownsea or what ever your Council program is called has been more of a priority. National has seen the ill effects of this and is working on changes. That Bob calls unit JLT (TJLT) kind of leads to me wonder if that is what they are going to call it. I have not received anything official.

 

My real concern is if National makes JLT a requirement in any form, JLT will just become a stepping stone for rank instead of a tool for encouraging leadership. I have already seen this with Merit Badges, First Class advancement and even the junior leadership position. While Bob did a good job (I think) on describing Junior Leader Training in it's general context, the whole problem I've seen in the last ten years with adult leaders is we just don't quite get junior leadership. Junior leadership starts with scouts skills and patrol method at its very lowest level, but its rare to find a SM who understands how that works. I know of a council where many of the SMs ignore JLT because they don't see it's need in this day and age. That is one council's problem, but it's not hard to see a little of that in every council because of lack of adult training. I give National credit that they have recognized adults need as much JLT training as the scouts. IF the adults don't get it, then they tend to ignore it or us it only enough to get by. Developing a real unit JLT program is a great step forward in helping the unit develop Junior Leadership. But making it a requirement for rank gets away from a program where the boy has control of his destiny in the Troop.

 

Truth is Junior Leadership Training (JLT) of any type is only needed in programs that don't use the scouting methods to there fullest potential. If unit leaders ran a troop perfectly, the Eight Methods would provide for all the Leadership development needed for boy growing into a man. Problem is nobody is perfect, so we use JLT to help fill in where our programs fall behind or fails. To make JLT a requirement of stature is taking away the responsibility to make the methods do the work and adding one more hoop for the scout to jump that may not be needed in his program. Our council has learned and believes that while JLT is for the scouts, it is just as important for the adults to see their program weaknesses and improve them. A good unit JLT (TJLT) will change often to fit the present needs of the unit leadership development program.

 

As the council JLT chairman, I an anxious to see the new programs because the wait is holding us up. I hope it is a good start toward teaching adults about junior leadership development. I hope it is not used to rank a scouts stature in the program.

 

Sorry for the long post, but you must know, I love this Scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[acco40]

For what it is worth, the SPL in our troop took JLTC (JLT training at a week long council sponsored training event) last summer and generated a "ticket" to complete.

[dan]

acco40

Sounds like they are modifying the training. I staffed JLTC last year, when SPLT15 was discussing his ticket a few months back, I went through the entire training manual and saw nothing in it about a ticket. SPLT15 than explained to me what whitstag is.

 

[KoreaScouter]

Random thoughts:

 

Laurie: If your son attends Den Chief training, talk to the Cubmaster and gently insist that the Den Leader he'll be working with attend the training with him. Many, perhaps a majority, of DLs have never worked with a Den Chief, and have no idea how to gainfully employ them.

 

Personally, while I believe that JLTC is a great opportunity and that every Scout who can attend should do so at an appropriate time, I don't believe it should be an advancement requirement, or linked to an advancement requirement. Basically, Scouts/Scouters at the unit level are beholden to their council to schedule and conduct this training. A Scout may be unable to attend due to cost, schedule, or other obligations. However, TJLT is entirely under the control of the unit, so there's no excuse for a Scout not having completed it at some point.

 

I believe TJLT is beneficial for a Scout in any leadership position, not just green bars. The introduction to leadership styles, conflict resolution, and problem solving makes it a day well spent.

 

I think BSA needs to completely overhaul the course materials for TJLT, however. I realize the book was recently revised somewhat to mix up the activities. However, the video is hopelessly outdated, and for most Scouts is more of a distraction than an aid. I think the layout, content, and sequence of the SPL and PL handbooks is excellent all the way around, and if BSA produced a TJLT that followed the handbooks, in a lesson plan format, with slides on a CD, and digital video embedded in it, it would be a dream come true. Moreover, I could do TJLT anywhere I could lug a notebook computer. Now, I'm tethered to a 110 outlet with a TV/VCR.

 

Please be conscious of the reasons why we're promoting training. Is it for it's own sake, or merely to "fill a square"?

 

Barry: Maybe I'm being thick-headed here, but I don't understand your comment about TJLT not being necessary if we're using the eight methods. I always thought TJLT fit under and is one of the cornerstones of the "Leadership Development" method. Am I out in left field? I do agree 100% with your assertion that TJLT should change to fit the needs of the "trainees". As I mentioned above, I think TJLT needs a complete overhaul, and one of the things I'd like to see is a "modular" concept that allows a SM to tailor the training to the experience and maturity levels of the Scouts. I haven't thought this completely through, but when I'm looking at a 15-year old Life Scout SPL who's been through TJLT four times, and an 11-year old 2nd Class APL who's going through it for the first time, and they're both getting the same material, I can't help thinking we could be doing this better/smarter.

 

KS

[Laurie]

KS -- I am the Cubmaster now That's an excellent idea about the DL attending training too; thank you.

[Eagledad]

>>I always thought TJLT fit under and is one of the cornerstones of the "Leadership Development" method. Am I out in left field?

[Bob White]

Eagledad, Quite the contrary, rather than ignoring junior leader training, the BSA has been focusing on it. For the past two years a national task force has been reviewing and revamping junior leader training.

 

A new JLT course has been developed and has had its first field test. It is being refined and is expected to be ready for use by councils in the summer of 2005.

 

You need to be aware that the troop level training, TJLT, has existed for over 15 years. it is not something new that was sent to replace JLT, but is a unit level version that the troop can hold whenever new leaders are elected or selected for unit service.

 

I do not expect to see any specific training be made a requirement for rank advancement in the near future. There is no point in worrying about it, it is still only a rumor with no evidence of fact.

[Eagledad]

>>Eagledad, Quite the contrary, rather than ignoring junior leader training, the BSA has been focusing on it. For the past two years a national task force has been reviewing and revamping junior leader training.