Bob White Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 "I for one don't see that "level expected" to be tying a knot while looking at the book." And I would have to say that depended on the individual scout and the level he is working at. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 "Or did you think they came about by wishing them on an internet bulletin board?" Maybe not on an internet forum but I'd expect that more than a few of them were brought up and kicked around over brandy and cigars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver-shark Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Bob I agree that we disagree. Have a great night! Kris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Yep I checked, too! The words fully mastered are there in the SM handbook regarding advancement. Silver, Maybe it's a typo. Bob, It seems you have forgot one point of the Scout law - courteous! Fat Old Guy has asked you many times to not fall him by the initial of these three names and yet you persist. A true Scouter would not do this. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 "Ed, Pages 28 through 30 of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual for starters." Bob, Maybe I missed it but I could find nothing that states once a requirement is signed off it can't be reversed. Please help me. Under what section of the above manual did you find it? Thanks Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Some random thoughts ... What is the real purpose of learning to knots? First Aid? The real goals (pardon me, I don't like "aims") of scouting are to build character, mental and physical fitness and to become good citizens. All of these goals can be reached without knowing how to tie a bowline. Now, very perceptive individuals have figured out that many boys like the outdoors, benefit from an association with adults, (as long as they are reverent and are not avowed homosexuals?), etc. A program has been developed (uniform ,advancement, patrols, etc.) that uses methods to try and achieve the above goals. Most boys like challenges and the wonderful feeling they get when they meet those challenges. Look at each boy as an individual. Don't lose sight of the big picture. Can I tie a bowline on demand? Give me a few minutes to "refresh" my memory and I can! have I "fully mastered" the skill? Various individuals would give different answers I suppose. One way to avoid this argument is to have the boys teach the knots to each other and then let the boys decide if they have learned the knots properly. In most cases, their honesty and effort will presently surprise you. FOG, get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Ed The advancement policies state that when the scout has completed the requirement to the level expected that the advancement is recorded. It also says that the scout is not retested. If you cannot retest, on what grounds would you remove the advancemnt? Why would you want a way to remove a boys advancement? Why do you persist in search searching for negative ways to affect the scout? Of the many Scout leaders I have worked with over the years I know of none who have worked as hard to take something away from the scout. Instead they put their energy into providing a well delivered scouting program. If you do your job as a leader why would you need to even consider taking things back? You want to be able to remove advancement, you want to control elections, you want to deteremine what merit badges they work on, you want to be able to use attendance to determine advancement. Why always the negative route? Where has the scouting program told you to do these things? Even you have refered to him as FOG, as have many other posters. What is in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet? It's just a bulletin board handle for cryin out loud Ed, It's not like it's his real name! Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 "What is the real purpose of learning to knots? First Aid?" Does it really matter what the purpose is? They are requirements. We could argue about the need for learning important skills for use in the outdoors but we won't. They are requirements, not recommendations. "In most cases, their honesty and effort will presently surprise you." You're right. Most of the time, kids will hold each other to a much higher standard than adults will and, in a perfect world, Scouts will be testing other Scouts. Unfortunately, in too many troops the adults are doing the teaching and testing or the parents are looking for special treatment for their kids and trying to get the adult leaders to intervene. "FOG, get over it." Get over what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 "You want to be able to remove advancement, you want to control elections, you want to deteremine what merit badges they work on, you want to be able to use attendance to determine advancement. Why always the negative route? Where has the scouting program told you to do these things?" OK Bob. I never said I want to remove advancement or anything else you posted! Again, you interpretation. No retesting is necessary. If you ask a Scout how he completed a requirement & he answers " I have no idea" then maybe he didn't do it & someone just signed him off! Oops! Forgot! That never happens because you have never seen it happen! "Even you have refered to him as FOG, as have many other posters. What is in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet? It's just a bulletin board handle for cryin out loud Ed, It's not like it's his real name!" I refered to him with that acronym prior to him asking he not be refered to as such. Since, I haven't and Fat Old Guy, if I did, I apologize. Apparently it makes a difference to him & you should respect that. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Ed, I guess one of the real problems with just having text is you never get the inflection of a voice, the wry wrinkle of an eyebrow and the total abscence of any hint of what is meant to be ironic or sarcastic. By looking at just what you post, I would think you were a total reactionary who pines for the days when a scoutmaster could flog wayward scouts, control their lives and generally run roughshod over them until they were molded into what YOU thought was the very model of manhood. Boys who object to your style are thought of as unworthy and wastes of skin. So when Bob posted what he did, I thought, oh, Bob and I think along similar lines. Now you have corrected that thought. THank you for straightening me out.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 "I refered to him with that acronym prior to him asking he not be refered to as such. Since, I haven't and Fat Old Guy, if I did, I apologize. " Ed, the only person that I asked to not call me "FOG" was Bob White. You and others may continue to address me as "FOG" and I won't be offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Fat Old Guy, I'd rather type three three letter words than a three letter acronym, but thanks. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 OGE Do I detect the wry wrinkle of an eyebrow? BW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraT7 Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 purpose of knots? In the days in which those requirement were put into the program, those knots had a very GOOD purpose - which is why I remember and have TRULY MASTERED them - from my days as a Girl Scout - those knots were USED on every campout, with the kind of tents and equipment we had. And a Bowline ALWAYS has a purpose - someday, almost everyone will have need to tie a knot that will not slip and untie - and a Bowline is IT. Do you want to be looking for a book for a 'refresher' when one of your kids is slipping down the side of a ravine? or would you rather just wait for the park ranger? Or are you or one of your boys going to try a granny knot and watch it slip out of the hands of the kid in danger? Acco40 - i hope if i ever slide off a path - that Bob's around and not you or one of your troop who need to 'review' before you can rescue me! Truly 'mastering' those knots serves a dual purpose, though - aside from knowing the knots themselves. Knots are like puzzles - if you truly know what makes this one slide and that one stay put - then you have been taught to 'think' and 'problem solve' - at least for those problems requiring a rope! I do think that the requirements need to be updated - taut line hitches are nice, and useful if you have old-style tentage or are doing historical work - but they are not necessary to modern camping equipment. I am GLAD to be rid of all those dang lines to trip over! Many of the Saw and Axe requirements are not appropriate, either, with the emphasis on 'leave no trace' - hatchet and knife are more appropriate. But as long as the requirements are THERE - I will continue to require 'mastery' of the skill. that is - a boy will have to be able to tie the knot, sharpen the axe, etc WITHOUT THE BOOK HANDY and with no prompts from anyone, before I will sign off on his book. he has to 'own' the skill. laura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 "I do think that the requirements need to be updated - taut line hitches are nice, and useful if you have old-style tentage or are doing historical work" Taut-line hitches are still very useful. What do you do if you lose those toggle things on the lines for your rainfly? What do you use if you need to rig a tarp as a fly? Clothesline? I'd like to see more rope work, like splices but that won't happen since it seems that requirements are eliminated more often then they are added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now