another BOR question

[Bob White]

How many times have we all heard something like, "He's been working on that knot for weeks, can't you sign him off so he won't be behind his friends?"

 

In 26 years of training Boy Scouts? NEVER!

 

"So if a Scout joins a troop and Dad, who owns the local bike store, gives the SPL a 75% discount on a new BMX bike which in turn prompts the SPL to sign off on everything in the new Scout't book, all the way to 1st Class, there's no going back even if the BOR knows what happened?"

 

Pardon me but...What an absolute load of hooey!!!

What ever medication you are taking it's either not enough or way too much. Absurd comments like that do nothing to further the discussion or to develop a better understanding of the scouting methods.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Bob White]

Sorry Ed,

I am not a fan of classroom testing and neither is the scouting program. The place for the scout to show he can apply a skill that he has learned is on a hike or campout, not in front of a group of committee members. The BOR is not the time or place forteaching or testing. Not just in my opinion but according to the scouting methods as well.

 

Bob White

 

 

[evmori]

"In 26 years of training Boy Scouts? NEVER!"

 

You must be Scouting on your own island!

 

"The place for the scout to show he can apply a skill that he has learned is on a hike or campout, not in front of a group of committee members."

 

Agree but the committee can ask if it wants to!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eagledad]

>>What ever medication you are taking it's either not enough or way too much. Absurd comments like that do nothing to further the discussion or to develop a better understanding of the scouting methods.

[Bob White]

If you have a scout who needs weeks to learn a knot, he doesn't need a sign-off he needs and deserves a better teacher.

 

I have never had scout that couldn't or didn't earn his own advancement and I've never had a parent ask for their child to be moved up without earning the rank as a Cub or Boy Scout leader.

 

Is this a frequent occurence in your troop Ed, or just one you think happens a lot in the program?

 

Bob White

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

Nice, polite and very Scoutlike response, Bob White. I am impressed by the way that you adhere to the Scout Law in all of your responses, we all can learn from you.

 

So, you are saying that such a thing as I posited could not happen? If so, what checks are in place to ensure that it could not happen?

[evmori]

Bob,

I have had that question asked of me. My answer was always, "have Johnny come talk to me about it. I will explain it to him." And it is one that happens in the program in other units! How do I know this? In talking with other SM's and Scouters. Maybe this is unique to Western PA.

 

Some parents feel earned means my son tried really hard but just couldn't get it but since he tried really hard he deserves it. I know, Bob, you have never heard of this but it happens! Then again, naybe it is uniques to Western PA.

 

Oh yeah - Why everytime I bring something up it has to happen in my unit, Bob?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[dan]

Requirement 7b for 1st class

Demonstrate tying the timber hitch and clove hitch.

 

It sounds like all of yous guys, are saying a scout has to memorize these knots. The book says to demonstrate this could be done with the book open and the scout tying the knot while reading the handbook. No where does it say memorize.

 

It is the job of the troop to make sure the scouts have the chance to use the knots through out the scouting program to learn them and memorize them.

 

[Bob White]

I agreee Dan, The scout skills are just the vehicle for what we do not the goal.

 

Bob White

[Fat Old Guy]

Bob White, I read your email and I notice that you still didn't answer my question. BTW, don't recall that "Snippy" is once of the points of the Scout Law, perhaps I am mistaken because I often am and you never are.

 

Is bribery that far out of the question. We live in a world where a mother killed to get her daughter a slot on a cheerleading squad. We live in a world where Little League teams import ringers from South America and forge documents so they can play. We live in a world where parents will attempt to bribe officials in everything from beauty contests to pee-wee football. Again, I ask you is bribery in a Scout troop out of the question?

 

Even if we don't use the extreme example of bribery there are other situations where less than ethical people could do less than ethical things and set boys up for promotion that they don't deserve.(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

[silver-shark]

Requirement 7b for 1st class

Demonstrate tying the timber hitch and clove hitch.

 

Hi Dan

 

Yes its true that the book merely says to demonstrate, but "The Scoutmasters Handbook", page 120 also tells us,

 

Step 3--A Scout Is Tested

 

A Scout wanting to complete an advancement requirement must demonstrate to his leader that he has fully mastered a skill at the level expected.

 

Fully mastered is a very strong statement. True, it is not memorize them, but is much closer to that than this could be done with the book open and the scout tying the knot while reading the handbook", or even being on the road to mastering a skill.

 

It is the job of the troop to make sure the scouts have the chance to use the knots through out the scouting program to learn them and memorize them.

 

This is very true, but the time to learn and fully master them is prior to having them signed off as complete.

 

YIS

 

Kris

 

[silver-shark]

"Even if we don't use the extreme example of bribery there are other situations where less than ethical people could do less than ethical things and set boys up for promotion that they don't deserve."

 

Hi Fat Old Guy

 

Although I haven't heard of bribery to get a scout signed off, I have heard of other reasons like parent pressure, and friend or peer pressure. This is more common than any of us probably know. There was an entire thread recently about parent pressure over a swimming test.

 

Accountability is the key. If the skill isn't mastered the one who signed it off irresponsibly needs to be held accounbable for making sure that the skill BECOMES "fully mastered." No matter how much time and effort it takes.

 

Not all people are worthy, for various reasons, of the responsibility of signing off on advancement requirements. This is not a right, but a priviledge with tremendous responsibility, that should never be taken lightly.

 

BOTH offenders should be treated in the manner that any other scout that has broken multiple points of the Scout Law is treated, including adults that lack the backbone to say no, when no needs to be said. If they can't, they have no business signing off any advancement requirements. Bravery is a point of the Scout Law too.

[Fat Old Guy]

"BOTH offenders should be treated in the manner that any other scout that has broken multiple points of the Scout Law is treated, including adults that lack the backbone to say no, when no needs to be said."

 

Be that as it may, according to Mr. White there is no recourse once that pen has scribbled a signature in the handbook. The requirement is signed off and nothing can undo that.

[evmori]

"Be that as it may, according to Mr. White there is no recourse once that pen has scribbled a signature in the handbook. The requirement is signed off and nothing can undo that."

 

Fat Old Guy,

I gonna use one of your posts as a question to Mr. White, OK?

 

Bob,

If during the course of events up to and including the BOR for rank it comes to light that the Scout didn't complete a requirement - his dad did all the work - and the requirement is signed off on you say it can't be changed. Where and in what manual is that written?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[silver-shark]

"Be that as it may, according to Mr. White there is no recourse once that pen has scribbled a signature in the handbook. The requirement is signed off and nothing can undo that."

 

Good morning fat Old Guy

 

What has been stated is that a requirement can't be taken away once marked off. There are however other ways to block further advancement of either scout until the situation has been remedied.

 

The whole Scout Spirit thing is the first that comes to mind in a case like this. As long as the skill is not "fully mastered", they are both continuing to live the same lie.