Camping badge - can we count family camping in 20 nights?

[rlculver415]

I see no serious problem with including family camping as part of the MB. There will always be parents who will try to take advantage of any part of the advancement portion. But as someone previously said, youth are basically honest and if the counselor will interview them he/she should be able to determine if they really did as they were supposed to and guide them to do better if the experience was unsuccessful.

 

Our counselors do allow family camping, do interview the boys concerning what was done there, just as they do concerning troop campouts. While we have several Camping MB counselors, they don't necessarily attend all troop campouts.

 

It is an expectation in our troop that naturally boys will camp with the troop. I have never heard it verbalized as a requirement, just that camping is so much fun who wouldn't want to go with the troop? We do some pretty cool stuff while camping. Seems to me that when one really examines the wording of that requirement to insist upon troop only camping is adding an extra element to it. It doesn't exist - don't add it.

[SM406]

I also believe that requiring the camping to be troop or scouting related is adding to the requirements. In the ideal world if the troop program is done properly, there should only be a few nights (if any) that will need to be credited to family camping. As a camping merit badge counselor I have given credit for family camping.

 

SM406

 

[mk9750]

I too would allow the Counselor to make the determination for himself, as long as he is consistent with his expectation.

 

But remember, the requirement is optional. a scout only has to do this requirement (just like any requirement for any MB) if he decides he wants to pursue Camping MB. If he sets a goal to become an Eagle Scout, then he must choose to meet this requirement. But until that becomes HIS goal, camping 20 nights is not required.

 

Mark

[Hunt]

Here's a related question--what if the long-term summer camp is in pre-pitched tents on platforms? Although the wording of the requirement is a bit vague, it seems to me that this wouldn't count, although some leaders in my son's troop think it does.

[LauraT7]

personally, I think that is WHY the badge is worded to count only ONE week of long-term camp - that and the fact that even if you use your own tents at summer camp - you are only putting them up and taking them down once during the whole week - usually.

 

One of our council camps has platform tents for the scouts, and one does not. We have only gone to the camp that uses the platform tents once, and many of the boys chose to pitch their own tents, anyway (no mosquito netting in the platform tents)

 

I think the INTENT of the 20 night requirement is for the boys to have the full experience of that many nights of being self- sufficient - pitching a tent and cooking meals - and while they don't always do those things every day at summer camp - they are learning other valuble nuances of camping - by 'living' in the outdoors that you don't get from 'weekend' camping - such as dealing with cleanliness of person and clothes, managing their activities, getting enough sleep, eating right without mom making them eat their veggies, etc.

 

i guess i wouldn't want to see a boy get his camping badge based ONLY on weekend campouts, either - different types of camping provide different learning experiences - I think the variety is important.

 

__________

 

 

As for my original question - I have solicited a few other adults in our troop to be camping counselors, as well - and we've discussed it and decided that we are going to try and keep it to counting 'troop' campouts.

 

there was a problem with a large group of boys in our troop who had been in many years and the 1 night campouts and LACK of qualifying campouts that the troop did had them short of the necessary nights - they had completed the badge requirements and were just waiting to accumulate enough nights to finish the badge - I felt we were almost holding them back because of a lack of camping opportunity provided by the troop.

 

But we have changed to doing more two night campouts, and added some patrol outings, so the boys are accumulating 'nights' faster. Also - because boys and adults have now been made aware of the problem - we are seeing more of an effort by the boys to make overnights - even if they have to join us AFTER their soccer game, etc.

 

however, the other camping counselors and i agreed that we would consider family camping on a case-by-case basis. With the requirement that any family trips considered should be mentioned to the counselor BEFORE they are counted in - and AFTER the badge has been started. They can't go back and count the family vacation two years prior to starting the badge.... Chances are - the families that DO camp outside of scouting, are the ones that camp WITH the troop as well, and the boys would be heavily involved in setting up and planning the family trips as well.

 

so that is our 'unofficial' decision for our troop.

[johnsned]

Unless I am missing something the requirement doesnt specify if the camping is done with the Troop, Patrol or Unit. I dont see how you can compel the boys to adhere to requirements that are implicitly in the official merit badge requirements.

 

Is this not the complete requirement for how many nights camping and what those nights must entail? I dont see where it mentions who must oversee the camping or what group it should be. It just says camping.

 

Show experience in camping by doing the following:

Camp out a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights. (You may use a week of long-term

camp toward this requirement.) Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have

pitched.

On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following, only with proper

preparation and under qualified supervision:

Hike up a mountain, gaining at least 2,000 vertical feet.

Backpack for at least four miles.

Take a bike trip of at least 15 miles or at least four hours.

Plan and carry out a float trip of at least four hours.

Rappel down a rappel route of 30 feet or more.

 

 

On one of your campouts, perform a conservation project approved in advance by the

private land owner or public land management agency.

 

 

[bt01]

As a Camping MB counselor, I am going to stand up and be counted. What do you mean you can not get 20 days and 20 nights for Camping MB? You become a scout when your 11 years old and have to day before you are 18 years old. Make sure that every camping trip with your patrol, troop and crew gets recorded. Getting the 20 days/nights is not hard; its only time consuming.

[LauraT7]

you are correct - over the ENTIRE COURSE of a scouts carreer - there is something seriously wrong if they can't get 20 nights of camping in roughly 7 yrs of scouts.

 

But -

 

There are 12 eagle required badges that need to be earned in stages across a scouts rank advancement - he can't wait to get all of them just before he turns 18 and gets his Eagle - he has to earn so many for each advancement in rank to Star, Life and Eagle. Most boys want to start on some of them before they hit First Class.

 

Camping is actually one of the easier ones, except for the 20 night requirement - and I have no problem with it taking a couple of years to get there - I don't expect a boy to get it in his first year - especially as I believe the whole POINT of the badge is to expose a boy to varied camping experiences and skills.

 

BUT - we admitedly had a major handicap in the adult leadership of our troop - not providing enough overnights and when they DID do overnights - doing only one night campouts and cabin camping. If a boy missed a few outings (which happens to even dedicated scouts - my son had to spend weekends with his Dad he would rather spend camping) some of our boys were getting only 4-6 nights a year besides summer camp.

 

I felt that this was a lack on the part of our TROOP LEADERSHIP - and have made progress in changing it. Through pointing out the problem to the PLC, we now do more two night campouts, and the new SM and ASM's are trying to promote patrol campouts as well.

 

However, we also have a new Venture crew (who's camping nights should also count toward the badge) and a couple of families that are avid canoe campers/ backpackers on their own. I felt that if THE NUMBER OF NIGHTS ALONE was preventing those boys from completeing the badge,(IE that they had completed the other requirements or were making good progress on those requirements) that it was fair to give them credit for their family camping/ venture crew/ other camping.

 

the new boys coming up in our troop will not have this problem - with two night campouts - when they get to the point of wanting to work on this badge, (a couple of years in) they should already have enough 'nights' to their records that the goal doesn't seem so impossible to them. But it bothered me ALOT that the boys in our troop who HAD reached First Class and Star rank, been in 3-4 summers & had actually been pretty active in the troop, were really surprized that they had not accumulated anywhere near the required number of nights - because THE TROOP had limited their opportunities (in my eyes).

 

As an example - our just turned 16 yr old JASM / Life scout, been SPL twice and almost done with his Eagle has 6 sessions of summer camp and 2 JLT camps in 5 years, 67 total nights - but only 22 nights that 'count' toward the badge right now. And he wouldn't have that many if we hadn't changed to two night campouts this summer.

 

Just by adding two night campouts, once a month since May 2003-(and no troop camp in July, as we went to two summer camps that month) the TROOP has added 10 possible nights of camping. That's almost double our past YEARLY average.

[bt01]

If the scouts are involved in a Venture crew (which is scouts) they could be used.

[packsaddle]

LauraT7, If you only had ONE night of camping per month there would be potential for 72 nights outside summer camp before age 17. More frequent camping trips sounds like the answer. As has already been stated, it doesn't have to be a troop outing - could be a patrol campout or like some of our families do, mom and son backpack trips. And like btps says, Venturing does count if the boy is also registered with the troop.

There was mention of one concept I didn't understand, "cabin camping". Could you please explain the relationship between a cabin and camping?

[LauraT7]

LOL!

well, Packsaddle, I don't consider 'cabin camping' to be 'camping' either - but apparently BSA does - just not for qualifying for the Camping badge - that is why, I suppose, that they specify camping "in a tent you have pitched or under the stars".

 

but one of our problems was that we were NOT doing one overnight a month, and some that we did were not camping - they were indoor overnights.

 

'Cabin camping' is listed as an option for overnights in TroopMaster, so apparently it is a fairly common type of outing for lots of troops.

 

'Cabin camping' is any overnight outing under a roof - such as spending the night on the USS Cobia submarine, or in a cabin at our council camp in the winter, or a lock-in at our church with the troop. like regular camping, the boys still have to plan and often, to cook meals - they just sleep indoors.

 

I do think i heard somewhere that Order of the Arrow had changed their rules recently and are now allowing overnights that are NOT in tents or under the stars (cabin camping)to count toward the required nights for nomination to OA.

 

For those of us in snowy parts of the country, 'cabin camping' is an acceptable way to start trying winter outdoor activities. The only reason i can see that the boys sometimes don't like winter tent camping is that they are not all equipped for it. Although at our first opportunity to 'cabin camp' I and the other mom along felt much more comfortable in our clean, tight tent than in the musty, moldy, dusty, breezy, smoky, spider and mouse infested cabin the boys chose to sleep in. once I tried winter camping, i was hooked.

[Proud Eagle]

"I do think i heard somewhere that Order of the Arrow had changed their rules recently and are now allowing overnights that are NOT in tents or under the stars (cabin camping)to count toward the required nights for nomination to OA." -LauraT7

 

As far as I know, there has not, at least in the last few years, been any rule on this either way. The OA sets out the number of days and the number that can be long term camping, but it reserves interpretation of what specifically counts to the unit leader.

 

See the national OA website in this regards to interpreting the camping requirement: http://www.oa-bsa.org/qanda/qa-52.htm

 

 

Here is a more complete explanation of youth (under 21) eligibility, also from the national website. (It is also consistent with requirements found in many other official sources.):

"Scouts are elected to the Order by their fellow unit members, following approval by the Scoutmaster or Varsity team Coach. To become a member, a youth must be a registered member of a Boy Scout troop or Varsity Scout team and hold First Class rank. The youth must have experienced fifteen days and nights of Boy Scout camping during the two-year period prior to the election. The fifteen days and nights must include one, but no more than one, long-term camp consisting of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America. The balance of the camping must be overnight, weekend, or other short-term camps."

 

 

 

I thought it would be better to get that out of the way before it caused any confusion.

 

[bt01]

LauraT7

How far away is the nearest scout unit(Troop or Venture Crew) that camps?? Can you turn around the uniot that you are in. I do have material on where ot go camping or hiking in the catskills of New York.

 

BT

[dsteele]

Laura:

 

For a definitive answer to your specific question about counting family nights camping, please call your district advancement chairman.

 

If I were your district advancement chairman, I would answer yes you can count them.

 

I did have to chuckle at the line about 20 nights of camping taking a lot of time. Actually, 20 days and nights of camping takes 20 days and nights -- the only question is how far are the 20 spaced apart

 

DS

[regina_dutcher]

The requirement does not state whether camping needs to be done with the troop or can be done with your family or other groups.

 

Therefore, you would have to accept all camping (with troop, with family, with other groups of friends). You may not change, add or delete from any requirements. Why some scoutmasters feel they can do this is beyond comprehension.

 

A scout is trustworthy! What kind of message does the scoutmaster send when he insists camping be done with the troop?

 

You have to follow the rules of how the requirement is written is the bottom line & there is NO specification there.

 

I am stating my opinion not only as a parent but as a Scout leader and Merit Badge Dean.

 

Thank you.