Camping badge - can we count family camping in 20 nights?

[evmori]

The requirement reads

 

Rappel down a rappel route of 30 feet or more.

 

The only questions that should come up are

1) was this a rappel route

2) was the route 30 feet or more

 

I have the same questions MaScout has. Is the SM the MB counselor? If not, he has absolutely no say in anything regarding this MB.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Region 7 Voyageur]

Another point to consider is that a counselor may not accept the bicycle trip or rappelling if it was not done on a camping trip.

 

"On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following, only with proper preparation and under qualified supervision"

[gwd-scouter]

Putting aside whether rapelling down a silo counts or not, the requirement also states that you must do two of the activities from the list "On any of these camping experiences..."

 

So, it seems to me that the indoor rapel activity doesn't count because it was not during a camping trip. And, was the bike trip part of a camping trip?

 

 

[Kim near Seattle]

 

And I come out of lurking to ask,

 

Those two additional activities (biking, rafting, etc.)--must they be on the same camping trip? That's how I initially read the requirement, and I figured that that was one intense trip. But what other posts suggest that a Scout could do the biking on one campout, and the rafting on another. (Or, presumably, both at the week of allowed summer camp?)

 

--Kim near Seattle

[janssenil]

Good points! Actually I'm glad to hear the comment about having to do these things while on a campout. That sort of explains how those things relate to camping. On the other hand, it makes the badge even harder to earn! It also makes me feel better about the SM not allowing the rappeling (athough I'm not sure that's his reasoning).

 

To answer the question about the SM and MB counselor, in this case the SM has kind of stepped in because our MB counselor isn't as available as he used to be and everyone was getting frustrated not knowing who to report to. It is not an ideal situation, for sure!

 

I did learn that the requirements changed this year that reduced the number of feet for the vertical distance for hiking a mountain to 1000 feet versus 2000 feet which means my son will be able to count that as one of the four.

 

Thanks for all your very sage advice!

[gwd-scouter]

Kim,

 

The requirements may be done on two different camping trips.

[Kim near Seattle]

 

Thank you, gwd-scouter. Allowing the activities on two different trips makes the badge a lot easier than I had originally thought.

 

--Kim near Seattle

[Dozy]

Question?

 

1) if a scout goes to a jamboree with his dad, and camps, but not with a unit, does that count toward a camping MB?

 

2) can the scout do his swimming merit badge requirements without the MB counselor present? and on his honor tell the MB counselor, "yep, I did the requirements"?

 

These are Eagle required MB's. I've been told by our Former District Commissioner that a Family Event is a Family Event and a Scout Event is a Scout Event and the two are completely separate and cannot be counted one for the other.

 

So if dad takes the son camping, and even thought he son cooks, or gathers wood, or starts the campfire on one match, that's not being done with the SM.

 

Even if the SM takes his sone camping, and teaches his son some scouting skills, that's still a family event, period, even if they wear their uniforms the entire time.

 

So, if it takes a potential Eagle scout 5 years to achieve a 20 night Camping MB badge, then it takes him 5 years, or the SM and the CM need to reevaluate their camping schedule and make some 2 nighters every now and again.

 

However, I will be going over the books to see if I'm in error or if this should be just a subjective judgment call AND unfortunately, not everything is spelled out neatly in the manuals.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Dozy)

[Beavah]

Dozy, I think you're gettin' a little too involved with your own son's advancement, eh? This really isn't a question you should be involved with at all. This is a question that your son should ask his Camping MB counselor. The campin' MBC's job is to interpret the requirements so as to best develop your son's character, fitness, and citizenship. Don't take this important adult interaction away from your boy.

 

1) if a scout goes to a jamboree with his dad, and camps, but not with a unit, does that count toward a camping MB?

 

That's up to the Camping MBC to figure out with your son. If your son went to National Jambo, it wasn't with his dad, it was with your council's contingent. Most MBC's would accept that. If your son just went camping with his dad, many MBC's would be reluctant to accept that, at least for more than a day or two, since it doesn't usually include all of the elements of scout camping. Just like most MBC's would be reluctant to accept a week of YMCA camp.

 

2) can the scout do his swimming merit badge requirements without the MB counselor present? and on his honor tell the MB counselor, "yep, I did the requirements"?

 

That's up to the MBC, but I doubt many MBC's would allow it. The requirements are "show" and "demonstrate" and such, which requires showing or demonstrating to somebody. Now, if the boy presented a Red Cross Lifesaving credential, or the MBC got a phonecall from the boy's swim coach, that's a different matter. Most MBC's I expect would accept the boy demonstrating the requirements to another experienced, unrelated adult. But it's still OK for the MBC to expect the boy to demonstrate to the counselor in person.

 

So, if it takes a potential Eagle scout 5 years to achieve a 20 night Camping MB badge, then it takes him 5 years, or the SM and the CM need to reevaluate their camping schedule and make some 2 nighters every now and again.

 

Five years to get 20 nights out? Yah, it's time for da troop to look at its program, eh? Most boys in most troops can fulfill the 20 nights requirement in under a year. A troop with such a weak campin' program needs some real program assistance.

 

However, I will be going over the books to see if I'm in error or if this should be just a subjective judgment call AND unfortunately, not everything is spelled out neatly in the manuals.

 

There are always people who want to be pink-book lawyers. I would encourage you not to be one of them, unless the values you intend to teach children are to complain and file lawsuits any time anyone tells you "no." We are runnin' a youth program here, nothin' more. Resist the urge to be a Little League mom.

 

In Scouting, ultimately everything is a judgment call. It's volunteers tryin' to do their best to help kids grow and bloom, and to instill in them good character and values. If you don't trust the volunteers in your son's program, or if they don't share your values, then you need to find a different troop or youth program. Tryin' to make 'em do it your way will never be successful, and won't teach your son the values of respect and kindness that I'm sure you want him to learn.

 

 

[Dozy]

"Dozy, I think you're gettin' a little too involved with your own son's advancement, eh? This really isn't a question you should be involved with at all. This is a question that your son should ask his Camping MB counselor. The campin' MBC's job is to interpret the requirements so as to best develop your son's character, fitness, and citizenship. Don't take this important adult interaction away from your boy. "

I did not address any of the above in my post.  What do you mean by "really isn't a question you should be involved with at all. "

We had this similar issue in our Troop where the a father used father and son time as scout time... The District Commissioner corrected him that this was family time and not scout time and that there is a difference.  I thought that was valid to point out.

 "This is a question that your son should ask his Camping MB counselor."  What's the question?  The Camping MB counselor (3 scouts received this Eagle Required a few months ago) clearly stated Troop camping events.  They were counted up and the scouts passed that requirement. 

[FScouter]

Tryin' to make 'em do it your way will never be successful, and won't teach your son the values of respect and kindness that I'm sure you want him to learn.

 

If you don't trust the volunteers in your son's program, or if they don't share your values, then you need to find a different troop or youth program.

 

It isnt your values or the volunteers values. The only values that matter are Scouting values. There is no value in respect for Joe Volunteer that insists on trumping the BSA Aims and Mission with his own personal view of Scouting. In Scouting, the Mission rules all else.

 

If the volunteers are misguided and have a different mission, the right thing to do is to work to get them on the Scouting track, and failing that, to oust them. Quitting just leaves those misguided volunteers to mess up Scouting for the next boy.

[Dozy]

The only values that matter are Scouting values.

Agreed and that's what we keep trying to get back to. It's worked for 96 years and still, people come along and think they know better -- or let things slide here and there. Heck, every now and again, things will slide, but still, it doesn't do justice for the boys to circumvent protocol. Scouts aren't stupid and will learn either one of two things... that shortcuts are always OK, or that they were shortchanged and won't shortcut when it comes to their lives or their own children. Either way, we'll have an impact... however, we'd should want our protocol to be the correct one so that they can copy it... not have to figure out that we were wrong or were too lazy to follow the correct BSA path.

[acco40]

I'm in the camp (pun intended) that says the MB counselor is "God" and what they say goes. If a Scout, parent, Scouter or another MBC don't like it, they should steer Scouts away from that counselor and decide if communicating to the advancement chair (who usually oversees the MBCs) is warranted.

 

Now, one thing I dislike is the rash of "notes" I have to write for the boys during summer camp. The MBCs usually take the SMs view wrt MB requirements. A month or two before we leave for summer camp I address the boys and tell them that if they need me, the Scoutmaster, to sign off on merit badge pre-requisites, please ask me before we depart for summer camp. I do this because I have access to the TroopMaster database and other records and don't wish to haul it all to summer camp. I'm constantly bombarded with Scouts asking me "Mr. Acco40, can you sign-off that I cooked breakfast on our campout two years ago?", while at camp. Truthfully, I have no recollection and they put me on the spot. i don't give blanket approvals or disapprovals but instead work with the Scouts on a unique basis. I try to be consistent but it is difficult. When I sign these notes, I don't state if the Scout has met the requirement (that is the task of the MBC) but simply state something like, "Johnny has spent 18 days camping with his troop which include 16 in a tent and 2 in a cabin. He has also spent 4 days camping with his immediate family at State Park while a member of our troop." With that information, the MBC make the judgment call about if the requirement is met or not.

 

One question I asked my young 1st Class Scout who has well over 20 nights (with the troop) of camping after 14 months with the troop is about the phrase "under the stars." I ask him when has he ever not slept under the stars. I then ask him if he slept under the stars, how do Scouts in the southern hemisphere meet this requirement? Yes, I can be a little obtuse for some of the young charges.

[SR540Beaver]

Acco,

 

Wouldn't that be hazing?

[Dozy]

Acco, I too agree that we must submit to the MB counselor. If the MBC signs off, then it's signed and done. Somehow the MBC was approved... but not necessarily the greatest according to perhaps OUR expectations.

 

Some MBC's are too heard, some are too easy, and only Goldilocks finds the one who is "just right".

 

If the TC or the SM is not happy with the MBC, anyone can drop that person from the list, or submit a complaint about that person.

 

If an MBC adds to the requirements, that's another issue altogether. If he is subtracting from the requirements, same issue.

 

It's a tough call all the way around, and on a case by case basis.

 

I am just sharing what our Former District Commissioner said about family outings. Family is family and scouts is scouts and they are two different camps.