TIME BETWEEN RANKS

[Bob White]

Eagledad,

Your entire post is based on a false premise. Nowhere in the BSA resources or in any post I have ever written on this topic have I said anything that puts advancement before program. The Scout Leader training and all BSA materials state and support a plan that a troop's program should provide the training, activities and opportunities that would allow an active scout to achieve his Tenderfoot to First Class requirements in approx, 12 to 14 months.

 

I have never even suggested advancement above all else. I have begged for leaders to follow the program and the adventure and youth leadership promised them in the Boy Scout Handbook. If you provide the program that the Scout Handbook promises to boys the advancement would happen constantly and naturally

 

The vast majority of posts on this forum are from leaders who want to change the program or complain about the program, when in deed they have never used the program.

Why arent more posters asking "how do I make this come alive" rather than "here is what we should kill"?

 

First Class Emphasis is a written plan on how to make the first year for a scout exciting, fun and productive. The methods of Advancement, Outdoors, Youth Leadership, and the Patrol Method all help to extend and develop the program until the scout turns 18. And yet, many leaders on this board dont use it. Instead they flood this forum with complaints that boys dont have good attendance, quit the first year or when they turn 16, dont want to lead, dont know how to lead, don't retain skills. When will they see that it is the adult leader's refusal to embrace the program that has caused every problem they have experienced? The problem is in the mirror, the answer is in the scouting program.

 

I am really disappointed that you would misrepresent me so completely. In what explanation of the First Class Emphasis program or any other post did I ever say advance at any cost? That is not the BSA advancement program and it is not the proper way to deliver scouting.

 

Of course we lose the most boys the first year. Troops that do not employ the New Scout Patrol and the First Class Emphasis Program lose scouts by the droves.

 

It is not a poor program it is that some units impliment it poorly.

 

In the future please be gracious enough to ask my opinion rather than tell it to me.

 

There are about 7 or 8 posters on this board who really know their stuff. They could help others learn how to deliver a real scouting program to boys. But they spend most their posts defending scouting from the vast arrray of complainers who want to change a program they have yet to learn how to do.

 

There are also some very vocal ones that when it comes to the real program are in a complete fog and wouldn't recognize good scouting if it bumped into them.

 

The hope for the others is that they are able to tell the difference, and begin asking for help rather than feed the complainers.

 

D.Steele could you help me down from this soapbox?

 

Thank You,

Bob White

 

 

 

[dsteele]

I don't know if I can help you down, Bob. I'm only five feet and six inches tall. You're up there a way, pal!

 

I have said it many times and will say it again. Advancement is a method used in the programs offered in tradtional scouting. It is a means to the end of helping instill values in young people . . . the values we seek to instill are found in the Scout Oath and Law.

 

I'm not a big fan of merit badge colleges, nor am I entirely opposed to them. I'm for earning some merit badges at summer camp, but not at the cost of quality. By quality I mean, is it assisting in the young man's path to learning to be trustworthy, etc.?

 

If it isn't somehow building those values, then we're way off base.

 

Aren't you all glad I only took one philosophy course in college?

 

DS

[NWScouter]

First Class Emphasis is not First Class come heck or high water. The emphasis is there because it retains boys in the program, just like getting them to camp their first summer. I saw a greater corollary in my term as Scoutmaster with a Scout making it to camp with staying in Scouts. Also a scout that doesnt advance doesnt stay either. The Scoutmaster Handbook states A boy who advances to First Class within his first year in Scouting has a better-than-average chance of eventually becoming an Eagle Scout. p.119 They mention other ways to motivate Scouts on to First Class, new-Scout patrol, boy-led patrol with a troop guide, and assistant Scoutmaster.

The troop needs to plan their program to give them opportunities to meet the requirements. If a troop takes a year and half to have ten outings a new Scout wouldnt make first class in a year. If it doesnt have three overnights or a five mile hike again the scout wont make it. If it is not allowing the older Scouts to teach and pass on skills, it wont happen.

The troop needs to make a big deal about advancement. Dont toss them their badges at a troop meeting but make them feel special, have a ceremony of some kind, sign them into a special rank book, and give them added responsibilities and activities. These are ways that would encourage them on.

If a Scout is not advancing be sensitive to him and find out why. He may need help realizing that on campout he needs to save time to work on few requirements. Sometimes they are having too much fun. You must also understand that each boy is different, some are tortoises and other hares.

 

By the way, looking in the 1960 printing of the Boy Scout Handbook there was no time in rank requirements through First Class, but you had to finish each rank before you could pass a requirements for the nest rank. You had to be Second Class before you could work on merit badges. For Star and Life you had three months periods and for Eagle it was six months. You could be an Eagle one year after making First Class. You had to be eleven to become a Scout, again if you were motivated you could be a 12 year old Eagle. I remember that you were moving along in those days if you made a rank a year.

 

[Eamonn]

If I were a young Lad, I would want to join the troop with OldGrayEagle.

Sometime back, someone said that I "Chapped their Shorts."!!!

Well mine get Chapped, when I visit Troop Meetings that are just boys in small groups working on "The Merit Badge Of The Week."

A well planned program, will provide all the opporttunities, that Scouts need to get to First Class.

If along the way there happens to be a Merit Badge that just "Pops Up," That is fine and dandy. Camping, Cooking, Hiking, come to mind.

But a group of boys in the corner of the church hall doing Dentist ? Give me a break.

I have a very near and dear friend, who is a retired school teacher. He was asked to go to a local troop to "Take Care Of," The Citizenship Merit Badges.

We met and he was very upset. He told me that he thought that he was losing his touch. He had gone to the troop meetings week after week and the Scouts had not brought their "Homework." And had played and messed around all through his lesson.

We talked for a while and he said that the Grandson of an old Scoutmaster had come with his buddy to "Do" one of these MBs, and how well the boys had done.

We both talked this over for a while and noted that the big difference was that the two boys who came to him were doing "Their" Merit Badge.

A Badge that they had opted to do.

Later I got to spend sometime with the Grand Dad,I said how pleased Iwas to hear about this, and how well his Grandson was doing.

He said that the troop helped a lot, they had all the Merit Badge Books. They had explained all the requirements and that he had gone over them with his Grandson. But Chris, the Grandson, had done all the work.

We all need to re-read what we promise the Scouts,it is in the Scout Handbook.

Much as I hate to use my son as an example for a busy kid. OJ,is really busy. Last year he played Soccer, Volley Ball, Track, Drama, chorus. He is very popular (We just had a birthday party for 50 of his nearest and dearest friends!!) He is a Life Scout, Vice Chief of the OA Lodge, staffed JLTC.And is having fun. He has plans to go to the next jambo. and next year wants to go to Philmont on the trail crew.

While he may be lucky, in that I know about all this stuff and that I'm willing to pay for and help. I at the same time do not push him. If he came home and said that he was done with Scouting, that would be his choice.

Even if he did leave the program, I would be happy that over the years he has had a lot of fun and has got so much out of Scouts and Scouting.

[Eagledad]

>>Eagledad,

Your entire post is based on a false premise.>Nowhere in the BSA resources or in any post I have ever written on this topic have I said anything that puts advancement before program.>I have begged for leaders to follow the program and the adventure and youth leadership promised them in the Boy Scout Handbook. If you provide the program that the Scout Handbook promises to boys the advancement would happen constantly and naturally>The vast majority of posts on this forum are from leaders who want to change the program or complain about the program, when in deed they have never used the program.>Why arent more posters asking "how do I make this come alive" rather than "here is what we should kill"? >First Class Emphasis is a written plan on how to make the first year for a scout exciting, fun and productive. The methods of Advancement, Outdoors, Youth Leadership, and the Patrol Method all help to extend and develop the program until the scout turns 18. And yet, many leaders on this board dont use it. Instead they flood this forum with complaints that boys dont have good attendance, quit the first year or when they turn 16, dont want to lead, dont know how to lead, don't retain skills. When will they see that it is the adult leader's refusal to embrace the program that has caused every problem they have experienced?>The problem is in the mirror, the answer is in the scouting program. >I am really disappointed that you would misrepresent me so completely. In what explanation of the First Class Emphasis program or any other post did I ever say advance at any cost?>Of course we lose the most boys the first year. Troops that do not employ the New Scout Patrol and the First Class Emphasis Program lose scouts by the droves.>It is not a poor program it is that some units impliment it poorly. >In the future please be gracious enough to ask my opinion rather than tell it to me. >There are about 7 or 8 posters on this board who really know their stuff. > But they spend most their posts defending scouting from the vast arrray of complainers who want to change a program they have yet to learn how to do. >There are also some very vocal ones that when it comes to the real program are in a complete fog and wouldn't recognize good scouting if it bumped into them.>The hope for the others is that they are able to tell the difference, and begin asking for help rather than feed the complainers.

[Bob White]

Eagleda

"The vast majority are just folks asking for help and ideas to solve different problems."

 

Go back and read nearly any thread most are loaded with tripe about the program doesn't work.

 

" later in the post you suggest I come to you and ask first."

I asked that you come ask for my opinion rather than you say what my opinion is, because you grossly misrepresented it.

 

"When did you ever ask leaders why they changed their program?"

 

And there Barry is the crux of my angst. It is not "their" program to change. We, the volunteers of the BSA all signed on agreeing to follow the program, methods and policies of the BSA. Not to change them at our personal will.

 

I quote the resources of scouting to say you don't need to come to an internet forum to get how to suggestions from strangers. The how to of scouting is already established, tested, and ready to share with every volunteer who opens a book or attends scout leader training.

 

I don't want anyone to deliver the program in any manner because I said it should be done this way. I want them to deliver it the way the BSA designed it to be delivered, the way the handbook promises a boy it will be delivered. The way to prove that it is a BSA method is to say here is where the BSA documented it.

 

The problems faced by new scouts is exactly why the New Scout Patrol program was developed. You realize the problem, you define it just as the BSA has, and yet you don't call the solution by name and stress it's use. That makes no sense to me.

 

I didn't turn this thread to me EagleDad, You Did!. I read the post again and Barry you totally misrepresented my views. You said 'this is what Bob thinks' and you were wrong.

 

As far as FOG he brought his problems with him, I had nothing to with it.

 

Look at the first response to the original post in this thread. I didn't say "do what I think". I didn't say 'here is where the BSA went wrong'. I shared with the poster where he could find the scouting answer to solve a scouting problem.

 

I would hope that is what the forum is about.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

Barry,

Two excellent posts! Very well thought out. Thanks

 

Bob,

I know I'm not one of the 7 or 8 you referred to. And that's OK.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[NWScouter]

Bob,

I was Scouter when New Scout Patrol and First Class Emphasis was introduced to Scouters. I sat in the talks when I was with my troop at Scout Camp. It was introduced as the suggested way of delivering the program of Boy Scouting.. The program was developed to retain new Scouts based on studies based on Troops that had using parts of the new program and polling done to see why some new Scouts leave early. The New Scout Patrol went against everything that was taught in leader training about how to have patrols organized. It came about because some units went against the training. So there are more than one way to deliver the program. There were plenty of Scout Troops that were successful before the new program and still are successful without using the New Scout Patrol.

If you are an instructor in training you teach by the syllabus. If outside of training a leader comes up as says I tried the program but isnt working in my unit. You question him and you offer advice to help him to meet the unique situation in his unit. You dont say hit the road jack you have to follow exactly the training. Health and Safety issues no arguments, but working with boys to deliver the program

Needs to be tailored to them.

Not all Troops are stamped out with a cookie cutter. They have different boys, with different age spans, different levels of skills in Scouts and leaders. To say one method will work for all is being nave.

You need to be less judgmental. From what I see, you are knowledgeable of book learning but as a District Commissioner I would not have you on my staff. When I first trained as commissioner, we were told about Red Coat syndrome. It is sitting back and drinking a coffee and just pointing out a unit failings. Your posts make me think that youre a classic example of it. But I dont know you as person and you may have great personal skills but it doesnt show here.

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

If you are an instructor in training you teach by the syllabus. If outside of training a leader comes up as says I tried the program but isnt working in my unit. You question him and you offer advice to help him to meet the unique situation in his unit.

 

That is absolutely true. I will spend as much time with a leader who is having difficulty understanding or implementing the scouting program as they request or require, as long as they want to learn the scoutign program.

 

But a leader who says they don't use the program and they don't like the methods but is having trouble will get none of my time or my staffs time. We are here to help deliver the scouting program, we work with units and leaders wanting to do the same.

 

My frustration on this board is not with the leades who have questions, I recieve dozens of private messages from posters on this board who need answers but don't want to enter the fray of nay sayers who don't use the program. I cheerfully work with them for as long as they need. I am deeply irritated by those who answer questions with methods and information that is contrary to the scouting program.

 

We are leaders of the Boy Scout program, that is what we should be sharing.

 

Bob White

 

[mk9750]

Bob and Barry,

 

I had a long post almost done last night and my computer froze up. Let me try again, but I'll cut it much shorter.

 

It suprises me that neither of you guys see that you are saying the same basic thing. Apparently Barry doesn't like the style in which Bob writes, and there is a small but legitimate quibble over semantics. But you guys are saying the same thing.

 

A quality program (Barry's phrasing) is one that folllows the Aims and Mehods of Scouting, and it will attract and retain boys. One of the Methods (and Barry seems to want to point out that it is only one of eight) is Advancement. Therefore, a quality program has a quality Advancement program. Barry wants to emphasis that Advancement isn't the goal, its the means to a greater end. But Advancement is important. A well developed program gives every boy the oppurtunity to advance, if he chooses, within a year or so. I think Barry would agree that making First Class in a year or so is a good thing, that it helps get to the real goal. I think he just feels that developing a special mechanism to make this happen artificially (FCFY)puts too much emphasis on advancement at the expense of the other methods, and possibly may even hurt a unit's attempt to meet the Aims.

 

Barry, if you can look past the style, Bob isn't challenging you, I don't think. I think his misunderstanding of your position, coupled with the beginnig of your post that directly disagreed with Bob ("Not really Bob, not around here anyway") put him in a defensive posture.

 

My point is that I have read both of your posts on this subject (in this thread and others) numerous times, and you guys are on the same page! Try to step back and see that. Because you two championing the same cause would be a force! And you guys are championing the same cause now, it's just that style blurs it. Reread each other's posts. Ignore what might seem like personal attacks. And I really think you'll both agree that there is more in common on this topic between you than is different.

 

Thanks to both of you for your input. I learn a lot from you both.

 

Mark

[OldGreyEagle]

"once more into the breach dear friend..."

 

First Class First Year is NOT an artificial mechanism that puts undue stress on advancement.

 

I dont know how its used on other units, Districts, and Councils, but thats not the program.

 

FCFY is a program that allows the scout to "make" first class in 12-14 months IF he avails himself of the opportunities provided by the Troop Program. When a Troop says it runs a FCFY program, it means it has a New Scout Patrol, it has an ASM charged with watching over the NSP's activities and it uses Experienced Scouts as a Patrol Guide. The Troop them commits itself to have a program that has enough troop/patrol activities to have the NSP advance in rank, IF they attend. A poster commentted he wasnt in a "camping troop", following first class first year the troop has to at least have enough campouts to allow the NSP to choose their campsite, pitch a tent and sleep in it, shop for food, cook the required meals, find their way at night, use a compass during the day, etc. Maybe not all have to be on camp outs, the idea is , does the activities the troop do cover the requirements for reaching first class?

 

When the First Year is over, the troop is NOT a failure if all in the NSP are not first class. The Troop is a failure if the NSP was not presented with the opportunity to become first class by attending scheduled events.

 

As Advancement Chair I have been told until First Class First Year came about, adult leadership didnt realize all that was required to become first class, that FCFY helped them organize themselves. Following FCFY just makes sense.

 

Now, if a boy would rather play basketball, and then Hockey, and baseball and then football, well, he will miss a lot of meetings and events. We will keep him on the roster but obviously he will not advance near as fast as those he bridged in with who attend every event. And thats fine, as long as he realizes his advancement is based on sucessfully completing the requirements. And if he doesnt realize it, it will be hitting square between the ears. And we have some scouts like that, they take what they want from the program and advancement isnt important to them. After all, its only one of 8 methods.

 

So, the conundrum is, is it making first class in the first year that retains the scout, or the fact that the troop provides a program that was so active and presented so many "neat" things to do that the boys just stay and advancement come naturally? and then, does it matter?

 

But please, can we get over myth FCFY demands artifical advancement? It just means the scouts have been provided the program and the support to make first class, they still have to hike the hikes, tie the knots and cook the meals

 

Peace out

[Eagledad]

Great response Mark

 

I agree with most of your reply. I don't know if what we really have here is conflict of presentations or respect of possible solutions. I do believe a forum is an avenue of presenting lots of ideas allowing the adult to determine the best possible solution to their situation.

 

On this subject, Pack899 is concerned that the advancement is going to fast thus the quality of the program is not giving the boy the best possible program. There could be cause for concern if the scouts are not learning the skills that are presented in the advancement part of the program because the habits developed learning those skills are very important for leadership later in the scouts life. I find that most of the skills a 14 years old and above scout uses while he is a leader were learned in his first three years of scouting. If a boy is rushed through learning his knots, first-aid and cooking, he will miss out on developing the skills of setting goals, initiating a schedule to meet those goals, and the since of a accomplishment once the goal is met. Youth leaders who don't have those leadership skills tend to act lazy and need lots of support from adults. They aren't really lazy so much as they don't know how to get started. These are the scouts who tend to raise their voice under stress and dont come to as many activities because they are afraid of their performance. They fall behind in their duties and many times just don't show up. So I believe scouts skills in the first couple of years are critical.

 

What you have to watch for Pack899 is how the Troop presents the classes and signs off on the skills. If all the scouts are herded in a room, the skills are taught and then all the scouts leave with that skill completed, then that is of some concern. Instead make an announcement that a knots class will be presented next week, next campout, on Sunday, whenever. Ask the scouts to write that down if they want to learn that skill. Now you are encouraging setting a goal and initiating on that goal. If he comes, it's on his plan, not the troops. If he comes, he will be rewarded by learning a cool new skill and eventally advancing. As he accomplishes the one goal, he should be asked (pushed a little) to set another goal. Write that goal down in his book and even suggest he prepare a plan in his head. It could be learning two more knots or getting second class. By the time he reaches first class, he will have set dozens of small goals and initiated on them dozens of times. He will have learned a few leadership habit most adults struggle with. All the troop needs to do is make sure they don't push the scout through the ranks, but instead teach the boy how to set his path and work toward his goals. The adults should care less about the scouts goals, but focus on his ability to get there by himself. You will find some boys goals will be two years in getting second class. So long as he is imitating on his plan, he is fine.

 

Does this sound like it makes a little sense?

 

Barry

 

[Eagledad]

>>But please, can we get over myth FCFY demands artificial advancement?

[mk9750]

OGE,

 

It never fails. I put down on paper what I think is an excellent post, and somehow one loose remark misses my eye as I reread, and is fodder for rebuttal. But you are right to have picked it out.

 

When I say artificial mechanism, what I meant was this. Our Troop uses all of the program you describe, although we do cheat on the NSP if the numbers are small, like they are this year. This year, two new boys were put into an existing Patrol, but we still kind of see and treat them as a "Sub- PAtrol", if that makes sense. But we do everything else: Troop Guide(s), dedicated ASM(s), program developed to appeal to the three general age levels of Scouts. The program plan the boys develop is geared toward providing an oppurtunity for boys to make 1st class in about 16 months (Crossing in April until just after their second summer camp in early August). We just don't call this First Class First Year. We call it our program. We've not had any philosophical discussions in our Troop (among adults or with boys) as to why we don't call it FCFY. We just didn't see the need to call something that we've always done (for the last 10 years) by a new name, and give all involved the impression that something new was going on. I think I can put a face to the worry by saying that at least I worry that declaring our program FCFY places too high a level of importance on advancement. Maybe it doesn't, I don't know. Eagledad seems to have at least unofficial imperical evidence that is does. But we firmly believe what we do works, and we know that 95% (or more) of what we do is in line with BSA. We just avoid using one if it's terms.

 

What's somewhat interesting, I think, is that our SM actually came up with the basic framework of what we do himself. He took over a horrible program, one that was losing boys by the handful, and decided something needed done. He did a number of things that were radically different than the Troop was doing before, including implementing the basics of our program. Then he went to SM Fundamentals training, and found out that with few minor exceptions, Our program is the BSA program. He still struggles sometimes with the concept, best descrbed by Eagledad a while back, of never doing anything that the Scouts could do themselves. But basically, the sucess of our Troop has a lot to do with a smart man implementing a good idea. Fortunately, it was in line with real Scouting.

 

At any rate, sorry for the phrasing when I said artificial mechanism. I did not mean such a negetive connotation.

 

Mark

[OldGreyEagle]

Mark,

Sorry, I did jump on that, but I keep seeing FCFY misrepresented and always try to set the record straight, I may have been a bit strong. I understand your predicament about posting, its not for the weak of heart.

 

Barry, if you can say

 

"So that is why I say First Class in one year is bad marketing for a program that is about developing character, fitness and citizenship."

 

after reading my post then you missed the whole point of my post and I am quite chagrined and vexed in my inability to lucidly delineate the context of my essay. FCFY is only bad marketing when it is not used properly. To say FCFY is bad marketing to me is like saying a gun is a bad thing. Neither is true, but both can be used in a bad way. Doesnt make either bad, just subject to the whims and caprice of those who use them. If new leaders get the wrong idea, are the trainers using the syllabus? Do the trainers understand the program? We know from experience that trainers, from their own words here in the forum like to emblellish the curriculum, maybe the whole point was emblellished into oblivion.

 

To get a scout to First Class in a year takes one heck of a troop program well designed and carried out. Along the way adancement requirements are met, since the program will by necessity need the 8 methods of scouting, the aims of developing citizenship, fitness and charactor have to follow.

 

If I cant make it any clearer than that, that I have failed in my oration and I do aplologize since I know that you, as I love this scouting stuff