No "sleazing" pact?

[Hunt]

I've read threads in which people complain that some leaders add requirements (like retesting all MB requirements), and others in which there are complaints that leaders sign off requirements that haven't been adequately completed. I think both of these are valid complaints. What I've been thinking about, however, is how to deal with this as a parent. When my son started Scouts, we made a pact that he wouldn't accept "sleazing" through any of his advancement or merit badge requirements--that he wouldn't accept these unless he felt he had really satisfied the achievements. My part in this pact is to help keep him honest. He's just finished his first year, and it's worked well. There have been a few occasions in which I think the SM would have allowed some "sleazing," but my son did the full requirement. I was proud.

But now I'm facing the issue of how much I personally should be involved in "keeping him honest," and for how long. For example, he returned from camp, and reported that he had earned his swimming MB. I don't doubt his truthfullness at all, but I don't think he's that strong a swimmer. I've said, "I know you've earned the badge, but I'd still like you to show me you can swim x yards with a strong stroke, etc." I'd appreciate any thoughts on how to handle this going forward.(This message has been edited by Hunt)

[evmori]

Hunt,

Being a swimming merit badge counselor, I understand your concern. This is sort of like giving someone a task to complete & having an idea how YOU want it completed. The person you gave the task to completed it the way THEY wanted to. The merit badge counselor (in the case of the summer camp I attend the area director) felt you son demonstrated his swimming abilities well enough and knew th other requirement well enough to pass him. This might not have been good enough for you but you weren't the counselor.

 

I know this is tough, but something we need to accept.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

I hear you, but let me give a more specific example. One of the requirements of the swimming MB is to bring up an object from the bottom of the pool. I know my son can do this, no problem--but he told me that at camp the counselor didn't actually require them to bring up an object, although they did touch the bottom. I'm sure the counselor was able to recognize which kids could do this, but maybe because it was a lake didn't make them actually do it. I'm not going to complain to the camp, or tell my son not to accept the badge--but I did ask him to bring up an object from the bottom of the pool, which he did, handily.

Again, I'm not his scout leader, I'm his dad--I'm concerned about his personal sense of honor, not whether technically we have to accept the MB counselor's decision. I think it's a fine line to walk, and it seems to me I should back off more and more as he gets older.

[Eamonn]

Have not long returned home from work.

Her that Must Be Obeyed, had been adding the new pathes to OJ's MB sash.

I gave it the once over, counted the number of pathes.Then came across this posting.

When he joined the pack, I somehow, someway ended up being Cubmaster. We both enjoyed Cubbing a lot.

I became involved with the district, but stayed on with the pack.

While this kind of worked, I found that when we went to do something. I was busy running it and he was being farmed out.

When it came time to cross over, he chose the troop.

The Scoutmaster is/was a good friend of mine and ran a tight ship. Sad to say within the year he found a better job, and was no longer able to remain as Scoutmaster.

The church found a Scoutmaster, who turned the troop into a Merit Badge mill.

There I was, the District Commissioner. My son is bringing home all these Merit Badges, that really have no merit whatsoever.

I talked to the Scoutmaster, I talked to everyone.But nothing changed.

Then about two years ago OJ, said that he wanted to change troops. When I asked him why? He said that he knew that he couldn't do the things that I did, knots and stuff and that Mr.----- was just handing out the merit badges.

So he and four of his friends transfered to another troop.

Yes there are still a bunch of "Unearned" patches on the sash. But the fact that he made up his mind that this was not the way to play the game.

The fact that he knows that some of these are just bits of cloth, with no real meaning. Is a lesson in it self.

This year at Summer camp he opted to "Redo" two of the merit badges that he thought were given to him.

While there is a lot of things wrong with what has gone on. If we are trying to help kids learn to make ethical decisions. Something is Working.

[Laurie]

I understand your concern Hunt. I do respect MB counselors, but I also know my son far better than anyone else. I have not given up my parental responsibility, so if I feel that I personally want to know my son can do something and I'd like to know more about it, I ask him--without apology. I've done this with him with school since he began. I've done this with his younger brother as well. I want to know what they can do, and it's a thrill when they share. As to honestly earning something, I simply encourage my son to do this every once in a while. He knows he could have coasted on a recent MB, but actually took time to make sure he knew the requirement after it was signed off on. I respect that and believe he'll be a stronger and more responsible young man for recognizing that he could coast at times but still give it his best shot and some extra time.

[SR540Beaver]

Something done right is a point of pride and a thing of beauty.....even if to no one else but yourself. Others may have a trophy on their shelf, but each person who has one knows whether they actually earned it or not.

[evmori]

If the counselor in fact didn't require the Scouts not to bring up an object from the bottem then the counselor didn't fulfill the requirement. Remember, requirements can't be added to or taken away from.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fat Old Guy]

Fat too many parents are fixated on the prize rather than what the prize represents. The merit badges, the black belt, the letterman's jacket all are supposed to represent hard work, determination, and reaching a specific set of goals.

 

How often do we hear, "he WANTED to finish that merit badge, can't you just give it to him." At do jos I hear, "why can't he have his black belt, all of his friend's have theirs?"

 

You even see it in school when mom or dad does 90% of the work on a project so Junior will get an A. The teachers actually encourage this behavior by gushing over the beautiful parent made projects. I applaud the Scouts that recognize that they aren't earning things and want to change troops.

 

I applaud the Scouts that recognize that they are getting something for nothing want to do the work.

 

[saltheart]

Quality of instruction 'outside' the troop was always a concern we shared. The quality of instruction of adult leaders, volunteer instructors, merit badge counselors, and others that we built over the years was one that the group itself took great pride in, and therefore maintained tight control over. The quality of instruction at summer camp was another thing. Those leaders that attended camp would make the effort to watch classes and volunteer where they could. Swimming was never a class we worried about for the instruction was absolutely top notch. Even the youngest instructors were to be admired for their attention to detail. Some other classes (even riflery at one time) were suspect. Scouts would blow through baskerty and wood carving and handicraft in a couple of days. Easy work, to be sure, but that easy? We got involved while we were there.

 

The point is that while we can take and maintain tight control over those things we actually provide ourselves, unless we can get involved in assistance to others outside the troop, we have to rely on the integrity of those teaching to do the job right. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case. And unless we want to stir the pot a little in an effort to make things right, things may not be as up-to-snuff as we might have them at home. Example; after the summer camp episode where riflery was not the best we had seen, and because of the subject matter, we took control of that badge and with the assistance of a couple of NRA trained and one ex-military instructors, and the use of a local gun club range, we taught those things ourselves.

 

Now, that's my thoughts as a leader. As a parent, my take would be that we still have to depend on the integrity of the instructors until evidence points in another direction. Stepping in as an effort in "keeping him honest" might do your own conscience good, but it wouldn't change the fact that the instruction outside your control wasn't up to what you expected. That is and will be the case in every walk of life your son comes across during his life. During his growing years, if he can carry with him your words and teaching so that he, himself, recognizes this and makes the effort where necessary to go the extra distance not provided in the instruction, he'll be better for it, and you'll sleep easier knowing he sees life through those eyes.

 

I guess I'd say that stepping in to keep him honest might be best served as an effort to reinforce his understanding that mediocrity is neither a path to travel nor a goal to seek. If he understands that, he's likely to follow the steeper but more rewarding path.

 

Stepping in to keep the program honest would require your time and effort, probably as a volunteer wherever necessary. But, that's more often than not, just how we all get involved, thinking that we can lend a hand where we see that things might be a little better. And then another. And then another...... Before you know it, you're a trained adult leader having more fun than you thought you ever could.

[mk9750]

Hunt,

 

I think I've picked up on a subtle idea throughout most of the answers so far, and it is one that I think is important. It is also one that when said directly, could have the effect of offending many parents, but that is not the intent.

 

I see one of the biggest values of Scouting as developing boys into Men. I capitalized Men because I see a difference in a male who has matured physically, one who can do adult like things, and a male who stands for something, who others look to as the example of character.

 

In my expereience in this wonderful program, the Men our Troop has helped develop all had a number of common traits. One that is appropriate to mention here is that each of these boy's parents had very little influence on their Scout lifes. During Eagle Courts of Honor, when parents speak about their sons, it is obvious that there was always a keen interest interest in what their sons learned, how they did, etc. But never once did I see any of these parents pack their packs, make their son do a MB, get a rank that the Scout didn't want, or so many other things that could be interpretted as meddling. On the other hand, in EVERY case I have seen where parents did stuff for their son, or ask him to meet their expectations, the son ended up dropping out of the program eventually.

 

If your son's Troop is generally doing it's job, your son will not need mom and dad interjecting themselves in his work. He will certainly do a badge or two that won't meet your standards, and, I'll bet that because you are good parents, he'll know they didn't meet his standards either.

 

But these guys are amazing. So many times in 8 years I have seen examples where a boy has not been satisfied with his effort, and done something to fix it. Once, it was restarting Environmental Science because he knew he didn't complete all of the requirements, even though the blue card was signed. One boy felt bad with how little effort Basketry required at summer camp, and vowed (and lived up to) not doing any more "wimpy" MBs. One boy, considered legally blind, would not accept the break the Canoeing MB counselor offered, and insisted on completing the solo course he had to do, even though it was practically impossible for him. One of the biggest cases of shivers I ever got was when he finally did finish, almost past dark, and he knew he had done it, yelled "Whose you're daddy now!!!" It echoed across the lake for five minutes, it seemed. His sense of accomplishment was awe inspiring.

 

These guys may have accomplished all of these things if mom or dad had monitored their effort, but what would it accomplish? Mom and dad won't be able to do this for ever, and I worry that when I get too involved in directing my son's efforts, that I am teaching him that he doesn't have to count on himself, that dad will be there to tell him when his effort was or wasn't good enough. And I don't think that is a lesson I want to teach.

 

The word "meddling" has a nasty conotation, and I fear using it here. But Scouting is an opurtunity for a boy to become a Man away from his family, using the character his family provided him. If you are confident in the job you've done as parents (and it sounds to me like you should feel that way), than give him the chance to use Scouting to guide his path without much of your influence. He will not fail, and I'll bet he exceeds even your expectations.

 

Good luck to him and to you!

 

Mark

[packsaddle]

There is little I can add to the excellent responses I have read. So I join by saying this is the 'character' part where the boy must decide what the 'spirit' means to him. The parent is crucial in providing support and guidance. The exercise is one that he will have an opportunity to repeat for the rest of his life. Good luck.

[LauraT7]

It's great when the boys have enough integrity to stick to their standards in working on badges and rank advancements, etc.

 

But how do they LEARN that if they are constantly confronted with leaders and Badge counselors that set up a sub-par program? Or if they are boys whose parents don't care if they slid thru or not?

 

I still think the badge counselors - especially at camp, need to be held accountable to a standard. No more, or less than the badge requirements given.

 

an example that galls me - is my son's Leather Work badge at summer camp.

 

In some badge areas at the same camp - if work was done outside of camp on a badge they asked for and accepted documentation of the work - as SM i vouched for a boy in our troop who had participated in local theatre productions for the THEATRE badge, some boys brought photos of projects, actual projects they had done or notes from parents and teachers.

 

Jon had done quite a bit of Leather Crafts at a Church camp we frequented alot as a family. he had done leather tooling, dying, painting, made a belt and bible cover with buckles and snaps - really completed all the 'craft' requirements. So I went with him to Leather Work to vouch for his work with the counselor at camp. the counselor told us that he had to SEE the work Jon did - so Jon had to buy a kit and do the work there since he didn't bring the belt and book cover with him. OK - so we went and bought the kit - which had the snap already on it, and the pieces already cut and punched. then after Jon had tooled them, he could not dye or paint it because they were out of paints/dye. So out of the 8 requirements, he was supposed to do 5, and he actually only did two at camp, because they did not have the materials or tools to do 5 requirements - yet the counselor was willing to sign off on all - he said " he doesn't have to do them - he just has to have a project that includes it". Isn't that the dumbest thing you ever heard?

 

I don't have a problem with Jon getting credit for the work - because he and I both KNOW he had done the requirements for the badge (and more!) on his own elsewhere - but it steams me that the counselor would not give him credit for work done, yet insist he do an incomplete project at camp for credit?

 

many of the badges at this camp were inconsistant between counselors and program areas - And i did bring it to the attention of the program director.

 

This same camp sent us home with about 15 - 20 missing merit badge cards and partials.

[packsaddle]

LauraT7, I agree with your concerns about MBs at summer camp. My pet example is Env. Sci. where the boys finish this in 5 effective days of camp. I suppose this is possible if they do little else but I doubt such camps meet the full requirements for that badge. I have similar concerns about several other knowledge-based badges given at summer camp. I am still looking for the way to communicate such concerns effectively to our council. They haven't listened in the past. However, if enough of us make noise I think we will eventually be heard.

The issue with the individual boy is related but it is also separate. I see big problems if parents do not care. I agree that this is where leaders can make a difference both by instruction and by example. But as long as we rely so heavily on volunteers there will be inconsistency. And I maintain that the parents are always the primary determinants of a child's development.

The boy will always be exposed to peer pressure to take shortcuts, the easy way out. Learning to decide when not to yield to such traps is part of life and they need to learn that skill while such decisions have less impact. I wish them luck and good leaders to help them.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Rogue391]

I agree that some summer camps tend to give the boys the 'camp wave', meaning if the boy shows up at a MB session and does nothing, they still 'earn' the badge. Some badges require a lot of extra work and the scouts have to willing to go the extra mile. SMs and ASMs at camp can visit MB sessions and get an idea of how much (or how little) is actually being accomplished.

 

Having just returned from a week at summer camp I have a case in point that is very fresh in my mind. I had 5 scouts taking E. Science at camp. They had to complete their ecosystem requirement before camp and I was required to verify it to the counselor at the first session. They also had four assignments that had to be completed outside of their session time. Four of the five boys completed the MB while the fifth just wouldn't devote the extra time required. In the mean time a senior counselor at camp offered to spend extra evening time with these same 5 boys to work on Cit/World MB. Due to the time they had to spend on E. Science they all decided to pass on the opportunity. They made a wise decision and will contact the counselor when they're ready. I was proud of them, because THEY made the decision, not me or my assistant.

 

My biggest peeve about summer camp is boys (and their parents) insisting on taking MB that they are not ready for (ie Shotgun, Waterskiing, Cit/World, Archery, E. Science, Orienteering, Cit/Nation, Chemistry, Atomic Energy....).As camp leaders it is part of our job to approve the MBs our boys are taking, but what do you do when the parents insist 'little Johnny' is ready for a MB when it is clear he is not?