Questionable Eagle Project

[mk9750]

I've got a tough one, and figured all of you would be a great reference library for help.

 

We have a Scout (15) whose parents are pushing very, VERY hard for to make Eagle. He seems mostly uninterested, except to please his parents. The adult leaders in the Troop, and me in particular, have done quite a bit to try to help this boy understand that making Eagle is his decision, not his parents. It's a tough thing to do, because we are all conscientous to try and not step on mom and dad's toes.

 

Because we have not seemed supportive to the parents, his Eagle project was developed and completed with the barest of input from normal adult leadership: The Scoutmaster signed his plan off with he understanding some changes would be made, and he bypassed me and went to the CC for Committee approval. He certainly had that right, and I don't dispute that. But our CC, as wonderful as she is, is not very knowledgable about the ins and outs of Eagle projects.

 

He completed the project before he spoke with the District Advancement Chair, which is against our Council's policy. A number of adults asked to be able to help, but were told no. He recruited a couple of his friends, and the project was completed in two - one hour sessions on Sunday mornings.

 

My son was one of the boys who helped. He said that the project was pretty lame (his words), and that dad did most of the work. At one point 4 boys were eating doughnuts and watching dad glue stuff together.

 

As I understand now (about two months later), the bird house kits that this boy (or his father) made are intended to be sold at retail by a local store. I don't know the purpose for the sale, but I suspect it is for profit.

 

I spoke very quickly with the boy last week (he worked very hard to get out of my radar screen when I asked him about his project). He said that he finally called the District Advancement Chair, and got his approval over the phone. I told him that we should sit down and review his project, perhaps with the SM, to get any problems taken care of before it is too late.

 

I have now heard through others, including my son, that mom and dad are furious with me for questioning his project. They say that I've never questioned anyone else's project after it was done. And they are right. However, I've always had the chance to provide some guidance to other's projects BEFORE they were started.

 

My questions:

 

You have all of the details as I know them. Is this project a problem?

 

Am I handling this in the best possible manner (trying to sit down with the Scout to review his project and make sure it will be accepted by a BOR?

 

How should I deal with the parents?

 

I really can use your help!

 

Mark

[evmori]

Mark,

I think I understand you posted the project was completed prior to getting the district advancement committee approval? From my understanding this makes the project a service project & the Scout will have to get another Eagle project.

 

Bob,

Am I correct?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[shemgren]

Contact the District Advancement Chair to inform him/her of your conclusions.

 

If the Eagle Project was completed before approval was granted (in my council, that is written approval), then it may be invaild. The Eagle Board of Review will have to make that decision.

 

The fact the Dad did work is not important since the Eagle Candidate is suppose to line up the help to get the project done.

 

The point of the Eagle Scout Leadership Project is to have the Eagle candidate plan, develop and give leadership of a way to solve a real life problem, that benefits the community, a religous institution, school, etc. If the project doesn't meet this defination, it may or may not be approved by the district or by the Eagle BOR at that time. The Eagle BOR may not accept how the project was carried out and the Scout would have to do a new project.

 

Also, to the issue of the of the Scout himself not really wanting the Eagle, I had such a case in my troop many years ago, and the Scout never even had an Eagle COH.

It is hard to deal with this, since it appears that you have already angered the parent by questioning the project. Remember, the final decision is the Eagle BOR.

I would say that you have burned the bridge to these parents, and any way you try to help at this point would be rejected. The fact that they by-passed you in the project process suggests that the parents knew it was a weak project and you would point this out to Scout and give him guidance on how to improve , making it longer, and for some reason, they didn't want you interferring.

 

I serve my troop by advising Eagle candidates through the process, including their choice of project. Every boy who hasn't accepted my help, has struggled through the process.

[mk9750]

Ed,

 

I think you are right. But this is only part of the problem. Even if the District AC signed off, what would happen at BOR or National Review? Someone (and it is likely to be me) will have to deal with these parents. I am going to need as much armor as I can get here. I am assuming all of the facts are correct, but until I speak with the boy directly and openly about his project, what I know is only speculation and innuendo. But just wanting to talk to him has his parents irked.

 

Mark

[evmori]

Mark,

I would inform the district AC AND your DE AND the council advancement committee that the project was completed prior to the final approval.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

From page three of the Eagle Scout Leadership Setvice Project Workbook 18-927B

2001

 

Major Heading: Approvals

Heading: Before You Start

 

it says:

 

"Your project must be approved by your unit leader, unit committe and council or district advancement committee before the project is started..."

 

By your posting it cant be an Eagle project as district approval was done after project completion. Now, you have already alluded to a potential problem. You son says its a "lame project", the other three proabably feel the same way. In a few years another "lame" project will come up and how will you or your troop defend turing it down when they can point to this project and ask why wasnt it challenged. I understand precedents can change, its just very hard on all concerned.

 

Piggy-backing on all that has been said about Eagle projects, its also an exercise in following directions, if you cant read past page 1 of the instruciton booklet, how well did you follow it?

[mk9750]

Thanks, and keep the thoughts coming!

 

Shemgren,

 

I agree that the dad doing the work is not de facto evidence that the project did not show leadership, but it is very telling, especially given everything else that I know or have heard.

 

I agree that it is likely (though not for certain) that I have burned bridges with the parents. And I am sure you are right that they bypassed me in order to have a path of least resistance. On a BOR for Life, we asked this Scout to work with the SM to develop a leadership project within the Troop, as his effort at PL was not very sincere. I spent easily 45 minutes after the BOR on the phone with mom, and ended up with califlower ear. I am sure they worked to avoid me.

 

The idea of going to the District AC crossed my mind, and I may do that. But it seems to me that I am not doing this Scout any service by just kicking it up to a higher authority without trying to work it out with him first. It seems as if I would also be chosing the path of least resistance. I also wonder what value there is is going to the district guy when the boy may not even care. As a matter of fact, now that I am thinking about it, what are the chances this guy sabotaged his own project? I am not a qualified phsycologist, but seems like that might be a possiblity.

 

Mark

[evmori]

Mark,

Since this is an Eagle project, I would kick it to the next level. By not doing so sets a dangerous precident! And the Scout himself might realize the errors that occured & come up with a better project!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Shemgren, As the unit advancement chair, I would document my concerns and sent a copy to the district advancement chair and the council advancement chair. Since it is their job to see that the project was administered and conducted properly, and since they are involved in 'the next step' this is information that could help them make a good decision. Just keep in mind it their decision at this point. Remember also that an Eagle Boards decision must be unanimous, "you can fool all of the people some of the time, Some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time."

 

Bob

[packsaddle]

It is my understanding also, that this would be a matter for the DAC and the council. When one of our boys achieves Life, I give him the project workbook and with his parents present, I explicitly tell him that he must have prior approval before he begins. We've never had a problem.

[mk9750]

Packsaddle,

 

I go through the same routine when giving a Life Scout the Eagle packet. I don't do it with the parents present, as our Troop culture is obvious, and everyone knows that we make the boys responsible for his own material, and for following the directions or asking for help. It isn't often, but we sometimes field questions from parents who say "I don't undersatand how Johny is supposed to do this. Can you explain it to me?" and my answer is almost always "I've explained it to Johny. If he doesn't understand it, send him back to me." We work hard to make sure that a Scout knows to make his project his own, not his parents. But I am certain this Scout got this conversation from me: I remember it it clearly.

 

Bob,

 

The prospect of the BOR is what makes me want to settle this long before then. I am always asked by the District Advancement Chairman to be on BORs for Scouts in our Troop. I suspect that if this Scout specifically asked me to be excluded, that would happen. But if not, I will be faced with the likelihood that I will be the driving force behind the BOR not passing him. I don't have a problem with that, but it just seems like it would be a better experience for all if this were resolved before then.

 

One of our ASMs, as I was discussing this informally with he and the SM, mentione it is pretty ugly of us to have approved his project and then later question it. And of course, he is right. But in this case, the Scout didn't work through the normal process, and didn't get the benefit of people being critical of the project before he started. One could also question why it has taken so long to bring it up now. the answer is that I am just now hearing about the possible issues. And again, I can't describe much of what I am saying as "facts". What I know is generally 2nd or 3rd hand.

 

I understand that I appear to be fighting for keeping this "in house" first, and I guess I am. It just seems to me that if the project hasn't been done properly, and I (we) can cnvince him of that, acrimony will be minimal. The vast majority of you so far seem to feel taking it to the next level is more appropriate. If the above doesn't convince you otherwise, and / or if more people weigh in saying that the District AC should be informed, I think I will chose that route.

 

Thanks!

 

Mark

[dancinfox]

Mark,

Is it possible that the District Advancement Chair didn't know the project was already done when he approved it. He has the right to explain to the Scout that this is not an Eagle project but a service project because the Scout did not follow the rules laid down in the Life packet. If this is the case, I as AC would want to correct my mistake before things got to far. If he did ask the Scout if he had started the project and the Scout said no, then I would talk to the Scout about the the first point of the Scout Law, Trustworthry, and let him know he has to do the process over again. We had a Scout in our District who did just that (ie:did his project before approval. Mom forced the committee to sign the workbook. The AC asked me what to do? I talked to some other people in the council and we told the Scout, he had to do another project after going through the workbook with him, section by section.)

Dancin

[SharonNC]

Hey, just a minute here....how could an AC give 'approval' over the telephone? Don't you have to go before the committee to get that approval? You need to let that District Chairman know that he needs to train his committee. That's the person that needs to handle the mess of this kettle of rotting fish.

 

Eagle rank is the highest most stringent requirements, has the least amount of play in my mind, and allowing this to 'pass' is only fostering the ill will of those to follow.

 

Mom and Dad may have to bear the brunt of disappointment, but the boys of your district and troop that are following in his footsteps are the ones you must protect. In my humble opinion.

Sharon

[packsaddle]

Mark, this one tastes worse as time and details go by. Questions are forming with regard to intent by parents. The DAC does need to know that he approved the project post facto and the question of the disposition of the kits needs to be resolved...all before the BOR. It is my understanding that once the application is signed by all the appropriate authorities, national is unlikely to raise additional questions. This needs to be resolved by the DAC/council and addressed either prior to or during the BOR.

[nldscout]

While we may not like what happened, if the DAC approved the project knowing it had been started, unless the scout lied about it, there is not much that can be done about it.

 

Sharon, there is nothing in the eagle workbook rules that says he must present to the committee, just needs signiture on workbook. We don't have scouts present the eagle project to committee in my troop. Unless you call the SM, CC, and eagle advisor a committee. Of course by the time it gets to us we already know whats going on and what the project is.

 

Now the question of disposition of the kits is another story. Who was the benefator of the project, who signed that part of the workbook?

 

Just cause we think the project is lame doesn't make it a bad project, if its approved (which it was) and carried out according to the plan.