This Black Belt And Age Argument

[OldGreyEagle]

I love hearing about new ideas for merit badges, but the discussion on the ligitimacy of awarding Cub Scout age kids Black Belts also has merit. So, can we bring the Black Belt discussion over here? I hope?

 

I too understand the confusion many express when they see a 12 year old (or youunger) with a black belt and their mother running after them with the shoes and back pack the kid forgot.

 

Having never taken any classes in the martial arts, all my information comes from Brue Lee or other movies which I will admit may not be the best reference material to work from. I always thought the Black Belt was the top honor given to those students who had studied for years honing their body and minds into the rigid standards set by the Sensei (sp?) of their Dojo. To see preteens, or even teens for that matter, wearing a black belt cheapens the entire of marital arts. I know Tiger Schulmans Karate schools show up in all manner of strip or mini malls and I guess they have to churn out black belts to keep student and family interested but is that keeping in the martial philosophy? I always thought the mental discipline of marital arts was the most important (of course, that was from a Chuck Norris film) and what I see is kids wanting to show off their skills in a fight. I thought the whole point was to have the confidence to not fight, but to only defend yourself when necessary. I think the mass comercialization of marital arts has cheapended it severely. I draw a comparison between a Black Belt and the Eagle Rank. At one time having a Black Belt impressed the general public as did the Eagle Rank. Today, having a Black Belt means you bought one at your franchised Dojo. But Eagle still means the same because the standards have not been weakended. (ok, debatable point, but definitely not as watered down as the Marital Arts). The employees at the marital places are happy to tell you the Black Belt rate of their students, and beleive me, its not 5% (high estimate to prove a point) make black belt in 6-7 years. No commercial Dojo would stay in business if that was true. The cheapening of Marital Arts ranks is a model Scouting can use to see what happens when standards are relaxed.

 

Now, a disclaimer to serious students of the marital arts. Those who take it seriously and follow both the mental and physical standards of non-commercial Sensei.

I know you are out there, and you guys I really repect.

 

 

[mk9750]

My youngest son has a Junior Black Belt in American Kenpo Karate. He started when he was @ 7 years old, and aerned Black Belt when he was 13. He took a shade less than 6 years to earn Junior Black Belt.

 

In American Kenpo, the system is broken up into techniques and forms (or kata). Forms are usually a series of techiques strung together. As I understand, when you see martial arts done in the movies, what you are watching are actually katas being perfomed on an attacker.

 

There are seven belts, or ranks in the system, and each belt is divided into two levels, basic, and advanced. For an adult to advance (from Blue to Advance Blue, or Advanced Green to Brown), he must learn and demonstrate with proper form and control, 10 techniques, and one Form. In order to satisfy my son's instructor, at least, an adult had generally took between 5 and 8 months to learn and practice all requirements satisfactorily.

 

In order to advance as a junior, each level required a young boy or girl to master 5 of the techiques, and the same form as the adult. This usually took between 3 and 5 months for a boy or girl. Throughout a child's "career", he is told that working toward Junior Black Belt is preparation for working to a full Black Belt. They are never under any illusion that they are the equal of an adult Black Belt. As an example, it is proper ettique in Karate for anyone of a lower rank to bow to a Black Belt. Not only don't adult Green Belts, for example, bow to a Junior Black Belt, but even Junior Green belts do not bow to a Junior Black Belt.

 

The vast majority of kids I saw during my son's years in karate who wear a Black Belt met the requirements as laid out for Juniors. They each had the discipline to get to classes, practice outside of classes, be respectful, and live up to the standards that the instructor set for them. Are they different than the satandards for adult Black Belts? Absolutely. But so is the designation of "Junior Black Belt".

 

I don't want it to sound like I speak for all karate programs. I tend to see things much as you do, OGE. I go to tournements with my son and wonder why it is that officials can't get kids to keep quiet, and how 5 year olds can be black belts. And perhaps the few programs that do maintain high standards don't do enough to promote their philosophy to the public. But the program my son was fortunate enought to find was very much like Scouts. Except that there would be no way for a young person to race through the program in 2 years.

 

Mark

[fotoscout]

My son is almost 8 and he will be testing for his brown belt in Kempo tomorrow night. It should take him about another 2 years before hell be ready for his black belt. Actually its a junior black belt. That would make him 10-11 years old. Young, yes. But its a junior black belt and the children know that. They also realize that if they intend to go forward and want that real black belt, they have a lot of hard work ahead of them. And ultimately, they will be tested as an adult to retain there black belt status. In our school they cannot get a senior black belt until they are 18. After they get a junior black belt they are invited to be junior instructors, demo team members, and other leadership positions within the school.

 

OGEs question was , does it have merit to award young children a black belt? I would answer yes, absolutely. It takes the kids about 5 years to get that far. The kids has to have commitment to stay with it that long. My son truly belongs at the dojo. He is comfortable, and has some great friends, and has a positive relationship with the senseis. Is this starting to sound familiar? He wears his gi with pride, and would not be caught dead at the dojo without his dojo school tee shirt. Rank advancement is about every 4-8 months. The belts are not unlike Tiger/ CS beads. He gets rigorously tested for each advancement. No messing around here! The tests are hard, both physically and mentally. His brown belt test tomorrow will be 2 hour non stop session. Hell fidget and squirm, hell laugh and hell put on his karate face. In the end hell be the proudest kid in the world. So yes it has merit. As a junior black belt, the kids have to master the same set of requirements, kata's and forms, as do the adults. There is no slackening of the requirements because they are children. The only difference 'snap' and power that is behind the movements. Within their own maturity bracket, they need to do their best, but they have to know the material.

 

PS. Our school does not stress competition. The children are not required to compete, and my son does not. Fitness, self control and discipline are the earmarks or our school, not fighting.

 

If you are in school that stresses competition, get out and find another school. You are in the wrong place.

 

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

[SR540Beaver]

OGE,

 

Well, since I was the one questioning it in the other thread, I am obliged to respond to this one.

 

There are a variety of philosophies out there when it comes to MA schools. Some guys have chosen to commercialize and franchise. Some guys have chosen to concentrate on the fighting aspect and make it a competitive sport. Some guys remain with the traditional aspects of MA. My som went to a school that teaches TKD and is run by the second Grand Master to ever come to the states from Korea back in the early 60's. He has taught MA in Oklahoma City for over 40 years now and is very traditional. It breaks his heart to see some of the directions MA in general has taken over the years.

 

He will take students as young as 4, but he "tries them out" first to see if they have the attention span and maturity to start or he tells their parents to bring them back in a couple of years. There were only three teenagers at our school who were black belts. They had been studying for close to 10 years and were exceptional. Usually, he allows them to get to purple belt and holds them there until he feels they are ready to advance. Rather than run a mill and send them thru as fast as possible, he suggests that they take their time between testing so they won't get to purple in 2 years and then have to wait 3 or 4 years to advance further. MA instructors like him use a very subjective means in advancement. They hold tests every three months, but you only get to test if the instructor thinks you are ready. What you think about your abilities does not mean sqaut to him. When you leave his school, you represent him and you'd better know your stuff, so he is picky about awarding a belt to you.

 

MA is about much more than technique, it is also about philosophy. If you want to learn it so you can beat someone up, he won't teach you. His motto is, "learn to fight in order to keep from fighting".

 

The black belts (all taught by him) who teach in his school will tell you that your MA education does not even start until you reach black belt. Everything before is just prep work. Therefore, the black belt does not see himself as having reached a pinnacle, he has only packed for the journey he is now ready to embark on. Don't get me wrong, they are proud of attaining the black belt and worked hard for it, but there are nine levels of black belt to attain.

 

It is too bad that Scouting does not approve of MA, because there are so many similarities between the two. Here are the Five Tenets of TKD:

 

1.Courtesy (politeness, civility, gentility, manners, kindness)

2.Integrity (honesty, character, decency, honor, principle)

3.Perseverance (endurance, persistence, steadfastness, tenacity)

4.Self-Control (manage, regulate, command, govern, contain)

5.Indomitable Spirit (invincible, unconquerable, unyielding)

 

Tae Kwon Do is a traditional martial art emphasizing the ancient and honored values of respect and loyalty for one's country, parents, elders, teachers and friends or fellow students.

 

The practice of courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self control and an indomitable spirit is equally important as the practice of a block, a kick or a punch.

 

Without any constraints or mental discipline, the physical techniques become merely "street skills". Street skills make only half a student. You strive to develop the complete, well-rounded, disciplined and responsible martial artist.

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

I earned my black belt in Tae Kwon Do at the Kukkiwon, in Seoul, Korea, in 1992, under a Korean master instructor. I studied under him for the better part of another year, but was not considered ready to test for my 2nd degree (mostly by me, but by him, too). While in Europe, I taught, as a volunteer, free TKD classes on our base to Americans and Dutch, adults and kids. I did this with another TKD black belt, a Dutch fire fighter by profession.

 

I provide that background so you'll know through what color lenses I see the MA world. I don't get involved in arguments over what style is best. In fact, in the many instances I've been asked by a prospective student which style they should study, I usually reply with the one whose studio is closest to their house. They're usually surprised, until I explain that any legitimate style will provide cardiovascular fitness, balance, strength, self-confidence, flexibility, and attitude in a serious student. That's true whether it's any of the "-do's", grappling arts, western boxing, eastern styles, what have you. The only "limiting" advice I give is that if a family anticipates moving, I recommend a style that is taught and practiced around the world so that they can stick with it if they like it.

 

I also don't think there's an absolute minimum age for kids to begin studying. You have to assess each kid based on his/her ability to concentrate for the duration of the class, follow directions, and participate without undue risk of injury. Some five year olds are ready, and some 25 year olds aren't!

 

Junior black belt candidates in TKD (WTF anyway, ITF may be different -- I was WTF-affiliated) are not expected to perform to adult standards, and as others have indicated, they must re-test for an adult black belt. That said, the techniques, forms, and their application are identical for both adult and junior students. The only differences I made in my instructional methods between adults and juniors is that I did not permit youth to spar with adults (self-defense and break-holds excepted), or break anything harder than a balloon or block of styrofoam before they were 16. For kids, breaking is an exercise in focus and concentration -- their skeletal structures aren't sufficiently developed to break boards, bricks, roof tiles, or any of that other nonsense.

 

In my view, a youth with a junior black belt is no different in his skill level and commitment than an all-star baseball or soccer player, an accomplished youth musician, or an honor student. He's set a goal, dedicated the time and effort to reach it, and deserves consideration for what he's accomplished.

 

KS

 

 

[mk9750]

KS,

 

My respect for you grows every time you post.

 

I read with great interest your comment about youth breaking boards. What you say makes a whole lot of sense to me. However, my son's school did board breaking (nothing else), and a breaking routine was required for Junior Black Belt. I've always questioned the idea. The only thing that made me comfortable about it was that when my son broke his boards, he kept them. On every board he broke, his initials were writen on one piece. I have always suspected that the instructor pre-assigned boards for each of the students. I figured that the small kids got boards that may already have a crack, and the biggest kids got solid boards. Never asked, but it's what I always figured.

 

Mark

[SR540Beaver]

Mark,

 

I don't think so. All of the students in my son's school had to break boards in testing. The boards were 10 inch long 1x10 pine. Below a certain size and age, they had to break a "half board" which was only 5 inch long 1x10. The boards were cut to length with no other modifications or cracks. My son has his color belt test and date written on all of his boards and has them displayed in his room too.

 

KS,

 

While I doubt the BSA's view would ever changes wouldn't you agree that the philosophy and lessons of TKD in particular and MA in general dovetail nicely with scouting?(This message has been edited by kwc57)

[SagerScout]

KoreaScouter -

 

My son, age 15, has expressed some interest in martial arts. He's a chair-potato outside of Scouting, and has a history of both asthma and severe anxiety issues - both under good control now, with only occasional medications. He rarely loses his temper - his sister can do it, but no one else.

 

Is it too late for him to start? What should I look for in a dojo?

 

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

sager,

 

Not to speak for KS, but it is never too late to learn Martial Arts. My son's school had 5 year olds and grandparents in class. And no, the grandparents were not black belts who had studied for years, they were new students as well. Physical size (fat) my affect your ability, but it does not exclude you. I watched one of the men in our school attain his black belt back In February and he is a pretty big ol' boy. Beginning Martial Art students come in all sizes, shapes, colors, ages and genders. Just like getting your physical and having your medical forms in scouting, it might be wise to have your doctor sign off on the activity before your son starts. Can't hurt.

[LauraT7]

Hi all -

 

It was one of my scouts that has the 'black belt' yet has asthma and heart problems severe enough to prevent him from participating in other sports.

 

I don't know what kind of "black belt" this youngster has. I HAVE known him since kindergarten and he is a terrific kid. a GOOD kid. a good SCOUT. I suspect his belt is the Jr kind - as I don't know sqaut about Martial Arts but do know his folks some - and know that this would fit in with their educational philosophy for him. His mom says he has been in karate since before kindergarten- so it would make sense to me, that at 13 and 7th grade, he would be getting a Jr Black Belt. wouldn't it to you?

 

Anyway - the point of my badge post though - is that since there are so many badges anyway, that represent so many different areas - it surprised me that there was no Martial Arts Badge.

 

One of the things Scouting does so well is recognise acheivements and present avenues of learning that other organizations do not. when I was a Girl Scout - I belonged to a troop and council where i felt that ANYTHING I wanted to try, I could try through Scouting. BSA does a good job of that, too - but I felt that there was reason to add some badges in specialties that were not represented.

[fotoscout]

Hi All,

 

My son got his brown belt tonight! What a peacock! Of course my wife and I knew it was a given, but my son hasnt figured that out yet. Like some of the other schools, the kids are only invited to test when the Sensei is satisfied that they are ready.

 

You know I never cease to be amazed at the capacity of a young child to learn anything. For almost 2 hours these kids when through their material. Sometimes by rote, sometimes on command but never missing a beat, never breaking stride, always confident and sure of what they were doing. Just amazing.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Fotoscout

 

Are you saying that when you expect excellence you get it, and when you accept mediocrity thats what you will get?

 

What a concept!

[fotoscout]

OGE,

 

Yes, thats a great way to look at it.

 

I was actually marveling at the ability of their sponge like little minds to absorb literally anything we throw at them.

 

[mk9750]

OGE,

 

"... when you expect excellence you get it, and when you accept mediocrity thats what you will get?"

 

Can I steal that?

 

fotoscout,

 

Congratulations to your son (and you, too!). I think I know what you mean. When I think of all of the techniques MA students learn and memorize, and the near perfectness of the execution, I am also amazed.

 

Mark

 

 

[fotoscout]

Mark,

 

Thank You