Should the BSA revise the age ranges

[Wallace]

What do you think... Should the BSA revise the age ranges for the three divisions.

For discussion, I propose the system currently in place in the U.K.. (and maybe other places-I do not know)

Here is the link:

http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/index.htm

Approx. conversion of the program is:

Cub Scouts 6 to 10.5

Boy Scouts 10.5 to 15

Venturing 14 to 18

Other 18 to 25

 

If you know if this was done in the U.S. in the distant past, please speak up.

Thanks!

 

Wallace

[Robin]

Hi You are slightly out on age ranges there - we have Beavers aged 5 3/4 to 8, Cubs from 8 to 10 1/2, Scouts from 10 1/2 to 14 1/2, Explorers from 14 1/2 to 18 and network Scouts from 18 to 26.

If what you are doing is working why change? the age ranges for Scouts was changed here last year to try to retain older Scouts and is yet to prove itself.

[Wallace]

I took the stated ages from the website and slightly adjusted them to our current program groups.

 

Wallace

[Bob White]

Robin asks the important question. Why? the current ages are based on the school grade levels, the social and physiological needs of boys at various stages of development and the ability to affect the aims of scouting through specific, effective, standardized methods.

 

On what evidence do you feel the ages need to be altered? Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying we shouldn't. I'm open to new information that esttablishes a need. But what evidence or reasons do you have, other than other countries do it differently?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Wallace]

Given the huge volume of ongoing discussion about:

1) Boys earning Eagle at a young age. (12 or 13...you know what I mean)

2) The affect of the three "G's" on older Scouts and their retention rate within the Troop.

3) The need for older boys to move on to high adventure programs and separate themselves from the younger boys. (The large increase each year in the Venturing Crew numbers are partial evidence of this.)

4) The great maturity and ability difference between a boy of 11 and a boy of 17.

 

I am also just plain curoius what experience Scouts in other nations have with this.

[Robin]

One of the adverse results of our program change is taking the older Scouts away from the troop in to explorers so we now have 13 and 14 year old PL'S instead or 15 and 16 year olds. Here the Explorer section is supposed to be District based rather than Scout group based. Kids want to stay with their own Scout group (which they could have been in for 8 years rather than join something that is based elsewhere. They also introduced a rule that all new sections must accept girls, so all explorer groups must take in girls.

Explorer groups are only just starting here (the UK), so time will tell if the Scout Association has got it right.

[Bob White]

"Given the huge volume of ongoing discussion about:

1) Boys earning Eagle at a young age. (12 or 13...you know what I mean)

 

How would altering the age change the advancement requirements? A few leaders may have problems with the age of eagles but the BSA program does not. Thirteen year olds havebeen earning the eagle ward for decades Sam Walton and Ozzie nelson were bothe 13-year-old Eagle Scouts.

 

2) The affect of the three "G's" on older Scouts and their retention rate within the Troop.

 

Gas, Girls and ?. Have been around for decades. Gas and girls do not chase boys from scouting, boring meetings do. How would altering the age limits improve the quality of the meetings or the abilities for the adult leaders?

 

3) The need for older boys to move on to high adventure programs and separate themselves from the younger boys. (The large increase each year in the Venturing Crew numbers are partial evidence of this.)

 

Hence the New Scout Patrol program, Regular Patrols, Venture Patrols and Venturing Crews. The fact that Venturing is steadily increasing shows that it is being successful doesn't it? Why would they need to alter the age?

 

4) The great maturity and ability difference between a boy of 11 and a boy of 17.

 

A rephrasing of question 3. The same answer applies. it is not that the Boy Scout program has not responded to these issues. The problem is that so many units do not follow the programs that were designed to address them. Changing ages will not make the leaders follow the program better.

 

Bob White

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Before we go down the road of too young eagles (12&13) again, lets look at some statistics recently gleaned from other threads. The total number of scouts who make Eagle comprise 4.3% (2001 figure courtesy of Eagle74) of the scouts who joined. To be conservative in this exercise, (and allow my math calculations to be easier)lets say the Eagle rate has climbed to 5%. Based on what I have heard on the forum, maybe 10% of all Eagles are 13 or younger. (the 10% is just a pure guess, but I think its high, let me know what you think) That means out of 200 scouts 1 will become an Eagle at 12 or 13.

 

I dont think 1 out of 200 scouts is worth changing the age specifications, particularly when its not the 12/13 year old Eagle who needs to be examined, its the troop that needs to be reviewed, after all, stuff happens, it can be done.

[Wallace]

Wooooooohhhhhh Fellas!

 

It was just a speculative question based upon what they do in the U.K.. It was not meant as a manifesto.

 

I do not suggest that there is a problem with the BSA program.

They have taken (mostly) positive steps to alter the program over the years to address the issues.

I do not have a problem with the 13 yr old Eagle (see all of your posts on the subject Bob-I agree with all of them and 99% of your other opinions).

 

As you Bob (and others) have said, it is not the program, but the delivery of it at the Troop/Pack level where deviation occurs and things fall apart.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

I'll go into the Wayback Machine and say that we should maybe make 11 the starting age for Scouts (no more of this 10.5 with AOL) or even make it 12 (like it was long ago)

 

What I've observed with the 10.5 and 11 year old Scouts is that mom and dad seem to do too much work for them and they wander about in a daze. With that extra year, they're ready to do things for themselves.

 

 

[Padre]

Both my sons went in at 10.5, one was ready and one was not. Perhaps we should base it on height, it would seem just as random. OK not really.

 

The problem is that scouts are forced to bridge over at a certain age. Why can't this be more flexible. Say that you can stay in Cubs until 12 but you can join Boy Scouts at 10.5. Stop with the forced transition and create a window that parents and sons can choose as appropriate. Every boy and situation is different.

[Bob White]

I dont know any modern, healthy, 12 year old who would be more comfortable, or develop better, as a Cub Scout than a Boy Scout.

 

Take the New Leader Essentials training and you will have a clearer understanding of how the various programs of the BSA are designed to meet the specific need of youth at specific stages of development.

 

Although it is true that each boy is unique, there are developmental characteristics that are generally by youth in similar age brackets. The methods of the various BSA programs are aimed at those know characteristics.

 

Bob White

 

[Padre]

Bob, you took it a year further than was intended, up to 12 is all I suggested.

 

I have not taken the training you suggested. But I have taught, at the Graduate School level, courses on Behavioral Sciences. What concerns me is that lots of scouters take everything in scouting as the gospel truth without questioning the content. Everything in scouting is not right for every boy. You will teach me in one weekend what they teach in college over a period of years? Do you take a test at the end of the course to see if the adult student has learned the material? Or that they have learned the concepts? Your answer really concerns me.

 

With all due respect, I would not hand every 15 year old boy a razor and tell him it is time that he started to shave. It will vary from boy to boy. My father did not sit me down on my 18th birthday and tell me I became a man that day.

 

All of the answers do not reside in scouting or in scout leader training.

[Bob White]

Of course we do not expect to give leaders a college degree over a weekend. As you can image leaders need to be able to be functioning leaders as quickly as possible to be effective. For that reson they are given the results of over 90 years of studying child development. The scouting program has been and continues to be developed by experts from across the country. When you wanted to know more about your major you took classes. We ask the leaders to take lessons to understand the real methods of the program. (and yes we do test at the end of some of our courses)

 

Have you considered that without having taken the training you are judging what is wrong with the program before you have taken time to learn what the real program and methodolgy are all about.

 

It is fine to question the program. If you feel you have knowledge or experience that would improve the program I urge you to share that with the national office that develops and diseminates the BSA program. But as voulunteer we are to charged with changing the program our responsibility is to honor the promise we made when we joined to deliver the BSA program and abide by the poilicies and methods that define it.

 

Imagine the chaos of trying to operate a "national" program with a over a million volunteers each running there own version.

 

And by the way we don't hand a boy a tool and expect him to use it We require that he be trained first so that he understands how the tool actually operates and how to use it safely.

 

Before we send them out to be men we train them for 11 to 14 years.

 

All we ask of leaders is to give us a few hours of their time to learn what the real program is before they go out to use it. That seems reasonable a reasonable request, doesn't it?

 

Bob White

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

I have been watching with great interest, all the goings on back in the Old Country.

I also have a very close friend who serves on The Committee Of The Council. Which is the board that governs UK Scouting.

This is the second big shake up of Scouting in the UK. The last one was in 1969, with the Advanced Party Report.

A lot of the new ideas that they have come up with, are IMOHP, very good.

I have bought some of the Program Books that they are now using.

Some of the ideas, such as The Balanced Program are outstanding, their use of the web is a lesson to us all.

There also seems to be a shift from Advancement to participation. Advancement is still there, but is not the "Be All And End All"

As Robin has said, there is a lot more District Involvement. And this seems to not be working as well as they thought it would.

As for the BSA, changing the age groups.

I look at a well run Unit and see the Scouts (Pack/Troop/Crew) busy doing things and having fun. There is little or no need to change. These kids are getting the program and it works. There is more then enough for them to do and when the Adults do their job right, the program will hold the interest of all the youth.

Over the past few months I have seen a few of our older scouts, join crews, but they are keeping up their membership with the troop. Where this will end? I don't know.

At this time they seem happy to be doing both, but I think one day they will do what they think is best for them.