(HELP) Requirement #1 for Star, Life, and Eagle

[RSBollinger]

I need some help with Requirement #1 for Star, Life, and Eagle. The requirement reads: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least (X) months as a (Previous Rank) Scout. The big question is what does "active" mean? Currently our troop has an attendance policy that mandates a particular attendance rate during campouts, troop activities, and camping trips if a scout wishes to complete requirement #1 for Star, Life, and Eagle (this would also apply for Eagle Palms Requirement #1). For discussion sake I think it is between 2/3s and 3/4s depending on whether it is a troop meeting, activity, or campout.

 

We have some that support the policy, while others (like myself) would like to have the policy removed. I would like to solicit opinions from the dedicated people on scouter.com on this policy matter.

 

My case for removing the policy involves several key points. First the camping merit badge has a requirement of 20 days and 20 nights of camping. This requirement is part of an eagle required badge because the national eagle board decided that a scout should have 20 days and 20 nights of camping. We do 33 days and nights of camping each year. Our policy would require boys to go to 25 days and night to complete the percentage requirement for those ranks (this does not include the necessity of camping trips for the first class requirement of 10 activities, which would take over 3 years without camping trips). This brings the required total number of camping trips to over 30. Isn't this an additional requirement on top of what the advancement requirements are to Eagle?

 

The next situation that is has occurred several times, is when a scout must attend a particular trip to meet the advancement requirement. If the scout fails to attend that activity they will "lose" credit for trips at the start of the period. If a boy became ill and couldn't attend a particular trip their advancement would be in jeopardy. This means it is possible for a scout to complete over 100 days and nights of camping while never meeting the attendance requirement. Does this seem right? What do you do with a scout that MUST work to help support his family. This scout might not be able to meet the attendance requirement. Should this underprivileged young man be held back from advancing even though he is taking a level of responsibility far greater than the majority of scouts in the program?

 

Another key ingedient to my position is information from the National Boy Scouts of America website. Under advancement I found the following quote: "The Boy Scout plans his advancement and progresses at his own pace as he meets each (advancement) challenge." Clearly if the scout MUST attend any trip for the sake of attending this runs against this statement. The boy is planning nothing which is a sign of too much adult participation in the program.

 

I also believe that advancement will show through attendance. The boys that attend more will be able to work on more requirements during meetings and trips. Thus if they don't attend they are naturally affecting other portions of their development.

 

Again, any opinions or references would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Robert

[evmori]

First of all, welcome to the campfire. There are many good ideas to be found in these discussions.

 

I am only going to address the active part of your question and this has been discussed at great length here before. An active Scout is one that attends Troop meeting, campouts, events, etc. An active Scout participates in the Troop functions to the best of his ability. Scouts should not be required to attend every Troop meeting or outing since there may be circumstances which prevent them from doing so. What active isn't is a Scout who is registered & doesn't participate in the Troop program.

 

I hope this helps & I look forward to chewing the fat around this virtual campfire in the future.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[RSBollinger]

Ed,

 

Thanks for the input. Unfortunately we have several key adult leaders that feel that a written, extensive policy is needed in order to define what as active scout is and what an inactive scout is. I feel this is harmful to the boys, especially those boys in other activities that sometimes conflict with the Boy Scout schedule. Do you have an opinion regarding this issue? Should there be a written policy?

 

Thanks,

 

Robert

[dan]

Robert

I bumped this thread up for you

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewthread.asp?threadID=13117

I could proably find at last 2 more just like it!

Good Luck with this issue. As you can see even with all of the discussion here, we still do not know the answer!

I see that Ed has toned down his beliefs a little!

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed is on target here as are you. You cant add or take away requirements from the scouting program. Look at it this way. Lets say Ed runs Troop 1, I run Troop 2 and you run Troop 3.

 

Ed doesnt have any attnedance requirements, he figures the scouts that show up will advance and the ones who dont, wont. I require 50 percent attendance for both meetings and events, and you require 2/3's attendance for meetings and 3/4's for events. Ed's troop produces an Eagle Scout, mine does and so do you. As far as national is concerned, all are Eagle scouts, but yours clearly overcame more obstacles (unecessary ones at that as well). Twenty years later, all three are still Eagles. Why does your troop demand what it does? To be sure the kids know their stuff? Why? If you have to double kids requirements to be sure they know their stuff,it doesnt speak well of your teaching.

 

Henry Aaron is an Eagle Scout, sure glad some one let Hank play baseball throuhout his Scouting career. Could he have made Eagle in your troop?

 

Bill Bradley is an Eagle Scout, played a little basketball, became a senator. I wonder if Bill could have met your troops' requirements as I imagine he played a little basketball as a youth. Could he have made Eagle in your troop?

 

Gerald Ford is an Eagle Scout, played a little football at Michigan, went on to a rather unusual political career (became president without being elected to national office). I am sure He played a little football as a youth, could he have made Eagle in your troop?

 

Willie Banks is an Eagle Scout and Olympic track athlete and a World record holder in the triple and long jump. I am sure he missed a few scouting events while running track as a youth, could he have made Eagle in your troop?

 

Boys Life magazine routinely has articles about youth champions in snowboarding, skydivng, BMX, etc. These are scouts who excell at other interests, could any of these scouts, featured in Boys Life, scouting's magazine for boys , advance in your troop?

 

Why does the troop leadership feel the need to exert this level of control? What is the reason given? What is said about troops without such rules?

[Eamonn]

I think that evmori, has hit the nail on the head.

[pamalam]

Our troop does not have a set standard for attendance requirements. If a scout attends meetings, events and campouts, he will advance. I think that adults are trying to control the kids too much.

 

Also, I'd like to address your statement that without campouts it would take a boy 3 years to attend 10 troop events. This makes me think that your troop isn't having enough events. For example, in the next two months our troop events include: Helping with 1 pack crossover, a merit badge workshop, helping with 2 pack pinewood derbys, helping with an Eagle service project, day hike, camping trip, rummage sale, hiking campout, service project for the county.

 

That is nine events (I think the Eagle project can be counted). If a boy attends these in the next two months he will be almost finished with his 10 events. Granted, these are two very busy months, but it's just an example.

 

For what it's worth, I'm with you. Don't add requirements that National didn't intend.

 

Best of Luck to you,

Pam

[RSBollinger]

Thanks dan, OldGreyEagle, Eamonn, and Pam!

 

I firmly agree we have too much adult participation right now. I have been an adult leader for 1.5 years with this troop and I am looking for change. I feel a percentage based requirement has too many issues the main problem being that scouts have different requirements depending on how many outings, meetings, and activities are scheduled during the particular time frame. I also feel that the policy violates the National Organizations goal of letting the boys advance at their own rate. Anytime an adult (through policy) tells a scout you must do this to advance (in this case attend particular trips, meetings, or activities) the scout has been told that they need to advance at the rate determined by the adult and not themselves.

 

I appreciate all of the feedback. I am setting up a meeting with a representative with our local council and the Scoutmaster to try to get the best outcome for our troop (and the boys in particular).

 

Part of this came up because we have a boy that is one of the top soccer players in the area in our troop. As he gets older he is looking for college scholarships and if he is absent from too many practices or games he won't be offered any scholarships and will more than likely be dropped by his club teams. He is one of the hardest workers in the troop having completed well over 30 merit badges but has gotten held up on the attendance once or twice. I have a hard time believing that this young man is not an Eagle Scout because he didn't attend a few camping trips.

 

Thank you all again and keep the comments coming!

 

Robert

[RSBollinger]

Pam,

 

Just a quick comment regarding the activities. Our troop does two car washes per year. We also do one indoor activity, usually a climbing wall. We do very little with the packs in our area. None of the packs are "feeder" packs. Last, any activity that includes an overnight is considered a campout and falls under a different section of the attendance policy. The three sections are (1) Troop Meetings, (2) One Day Activities, (3) and Overnight Campouts. We also don't tend to count Eagle Projects into the activities, that is factored in under service time.

 

Thanks and hope this clears up the 3+ years.

 

Robert

[OldGreyEagle]

Robert,

 

One more thing, so if your soccer player turns out to be the American Pele, or even the male Mia Hamm, how sad if he doesnt make Eagle because of your troops rules.

 

If he doesnt make Eagle because he chooses other actitivities, thats up to him, if he wamts to be Eagle and your troops' rules prevent him, shame on all of your troop

 

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[acco40]

Try this logic (yes I am an engineer)

 

 

Fact #1 - Leaders can not add or subtract from requirements.

 

Fact #2 - There is a Lone Scout program which enables boys to earn all ranks.

 

Therefore, making attendance at troop meetings, outings, etc. adds a requirement that should not be in place.

 

My opinion, a boy can be very active (i.e. live the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life) and never attend a troop meeting! However, much of Scouting involves teamwork and therefore every effort should be made to interact with one's Patrol and Troop.

[mk9750]

Robert,

 

Welcome!

 

As with the others, I agree that a set percentage is of no value, and most likely is contrary to the spirit of the requirement. However, I will not endorse some people's position (none stated here, but it has been argued in other similiar threads) that all that is required to meet the "active" requirement is registration. If just being registered isn't enough, and having some artificial percentage is too much, than how does one decide whether a boy has been active enough to meet the requirement?

 

In the early ranks, this is easy. They must attend a set number of activities. Very cut and dry. But in the older ranks, how does one define active?

 

In our Troop, we make the boy define what active will mean for his next rank. For some, this means they decide to be at 100% of the meetings and activities. For others, they outline how football, or work, or band will impact their schedule. They then decide how active they can be based on that. We've got a guy who just had his Eagle C of H who was on the Football and Wrestling teams. During those two seasons, he probably came to less than 25% of the meetings, all more than an hour late, and zero campouts. Outside of those two seasons, he was the largest driving force our Troop had. He was at everything.

 

This coversation happens at both the Scoutmaster Conference and the Board of Review for the last rank. We make a note in the Scouts book about his commitment. If his situation changes (new job, etc), he asks the SM to adjust the commitment.

 

This will look as though it isn't fair, that some boys can get away with attending far less than others. And yes, I guess that's correct. But without a set percentage or number requirement, there will be no "fair". So we ask the boy to determine what he thinks is fair. If he says "My job schedules me every Tuesday, so I can't ever make a meeting", we would tell him that he either has to find a new job, find a Troop with a different meeting night, or understand that he won't meet the requirement for being active, and not to expect to advance. But if we refuse to allow Scouts to work around other activities (almost all of which are valuable), we do them a disservice.

 

Good luck to you. Whenever rules aren't specific, someone always wants to create order out of chaos. It's human nature. But we believe that the person to do this is the Scout himself, not an adult, or a committee of adults.

 

Which leads to one other possiblity, and I pose this truly as a question, not a suggestion: Could the PLC create the requirement for a minimum percentage?

 

Mark

 

 

[CubsRgr8]

acco40, how can a scout be "active in his troop and patrol" without attending troop and patrol meetings, activities and campouts?

[RSBollinger]

Thank you all for your support!

 

I was referred to a quote in the Scoutmaster's Handbook. On page 120, in the center section in blue, a quote reads "Scouts are expected to complete the current requirements as they are written for ranks, merit badges, and other awards. No requirements may be added or omitted." The quote goes on to talk about exceptions for Scouts with disabilities.

 

I was struck by the direct language here. "... as they are written..." is very clear that no additional writing should take place here, and that a written attendance policy for the sole purpose of advancement is additional writing on the advancement requirement.

 

Just more ammunition for the no policy side.

 

Thanks again,

 

Robert

[evmori]

RS,

In answer to the two questions you asked, no.

 

acco,

I have the same question as CubsRgr8. Registered doesn't equal active.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10