Eagle? Aaaargh!

[mk9750]

Dan,

 

Thanks for the kind words. I've always known I did the right thing, because I also once made the wrong decision in a similiar instance, and vowed to never do it again.

 

I am not an Eagle Scout (sure wish I were!). But I take very seriously what I feel is my responsiblity as an Advancement Chair and a constant BOR member - To protect the reputation of Eagle Scouts. I made a mistake once. A boy who definitely did not live up to the Ideals of Scouting got my vote at a BOR. I won't EVER do that again.

 

We've had other boys get to 17 or so without any real evidence that making Eagle is important to them. I work them over pretty good trying to get them to understand the oppurtunity they will miss if they don't try. But in the end, it is each boy that must make that call for himself, and he has to look at the mirror regardless of the call he makes.

 

I'll tell a quick story that kind of ties in here. For years and years now, my son has wanted to do two things: Teach Music, and go to school at The Ohio State University, where not only would he be in the marching band, but eventually, dot the "I" in Script Ohio. Throughout his Junior high and early high school years, he put a very minimal amount of effort into school. He rarely got Ds or Fs, but he also rarely got As or Bs. I kept trying to tell him he needed to put more effort in. My line always used to be that if he had a 4.0 GPA, he could do anything - Doctor, Lawyer, Music Teacher, Bus Driver or Garbage Man. But with a 2.0 GPA, He won't have nearly all of tose choices available. He never got serious until the middle of his Junior year. Started getting 3.0s and even got as high as a 3.65. But, too little too late. Ohio State has gotten very selective and competetive, and he was not accepted. He can prove himself at a Community College for a year and transfer, which is what he'll do. But, the band only allows four year tuba players to dot the "I". Because he'll never be a four year tuba player in the band, he will never dot the "I".

 

My point is that even as young as the boys with whom we work are, they are making choices as teenagers that will effect their lives forever. Some are bigger than dotting the "I". But once the choice has been made, often the results are set in stone, as is the case when a boy procrastinates working on Eagle.

 

But, that is what youth is for - To make mistakes that even though they may have a lasting effect, won't do real damage. My son won't suffer for his lack of effort except for the memory that he would have had.

 

For those who have any kind of influence over the boys in their Troop: Please, PLEASE help your boys to understand the results of their procrastination if they are not moving forward. But if they don't make the decision to do it on their own, please don't feel bad. It is the young man who made the decision to sacrifice an honor that will last a lifetime.

 

Mark

[RuddBaron]

While we're at it... Years ago there was a boy who wound up with a one-year extension for Eagle for the "mental handicap" exemption. The claim was he had ADD. While there are legitimate cases of ADD and other ailments that warrant an extension, at the time (and maybe it is still like this) many boys were said to have ADD, but really simply lacked discipline. Yes, this boy had a doctor's note, so we couldn't do anything. Fine. But, I worked with him enough to know that he simply lacked discipline. Why, in that case, he should get an extra year because he slacked off, I don't know. With certain adults he would have NO problems whatsoever. We had several boys in the troop who "had ADD" but really just needed someone with a firm hand.

[Eamonn]

Eagle? Aaaargh?

At times this is how I feel.

In fact, it has got to the stage, where I try not to have anything to do with it.

Most of the time, I don't have to.

Yes I do try to attend every Eagle Scout Court of Honor, that I'm invited to.

But there are far to many people pushing for this Award, that I end up becoming less then happy. To make matters worse, most of those doing the pushing are not the Scouts.

(Strange thing, is that as I was going to post this I had the Stones playing and the track that came on was "You can't always get what you want.")

It's the adults.

Be they the Scoutmaster of the Troops that average over 75% of the membership reaching this award, or the parent.

I try very hard not to sit on any BOR.

The fact is that I really do like the Scouts and will if asked bend over backwards to help any boy.However, I'm a very tough nut. I go by the book.

I got a call from a member of the District Advancement Committee, there had been a hold up on the paper work at the troop level and old age was nearing. He faxed the paper work to my office and sure enough there was one required merit badge not completed. It was if I remember right, personal fittness. There was no way it could be done in time.

I called the committee person and informed him that it just couldn't be done.

He without a pause said that he would work with the boy.

Thinking that he had not understood me, I again said that there was no way. He again offered to work with the boy.

After I explained that there was no way. He went on to tell me that I was being unreasonable and unfair. By now cheerful was in very short supply!! So I said that no matter what I would sit on this BOR, and this Lad would only make Eagle Scout, over my dead body.

I then phoned the Advancement Chair. and asked him to go over "How the system works" with his committee.

I also phoned the Scout and explained why I was acting the way I was. He was/is a great Lad, when I said that it was not possible, he said that he knew that, but his Scoutmaster told him to try it and see what happened.

The last I heard of the Lad he was over in Iraq.

While he is in my thoughts and my prayers, there are times when I wish it was the Scoutmaster who was over there on camel duty.

[dsteele]

Once again, Eamonn does the right thing and I applaud it.

 

Some of you may not have heard of the term Paladin. I'm pretty sure Eamonn has. Anyone who played Dungeons and Dragons has.

 

To me, the definition of a Paladdin (sp?) is "essential good." My personal defintion is stolen from an author of a long series of books, Robert Jordon when he said of one of his characters, "he will always do the right thing, no matter who it helps or who it hurts." To me that quote is one of the hallmarks of a good Boy Scout.

 

While I do believe that there are times and places to see "if we can get away with it," there are also times when the "rules are the rules" is the key.

 

Eagle Scout is one of those. I wouldn't shoot the Scoutmaster in the head for having the Scout without the required merit badges "go" for Eagle, but a Paladin wouldn't allow it. It's a duty, pure and simple.

 

However, I can tell you (I only wish I were a paladin) I would look long and hard at any paperwork from that Scoutmaster for a very, very long time afterward.

 

Remember, as adults, we dont' make Eagle Scouts. They make themselves. The Scout Oath and Law are the standards for all of us.

 

DS

[mk9750]

Eamonn,

 

I too had a similiar circumstance. A boy who transfered to our Troop from another state did nothing toward Eagle for about two years. A number of us tried to coax him to do the last 4 MBs he had left to do (he already had a project completed when he got to us). He just made no effort. He was a grade ahead of his age, so he was already away at college when he was turning 18. He came home from school the weekend before his birthday, and called me asking to do Personal Management MB. This requires a three month budget, which he had yet to start. I explained to him that it was not possible to complete a requirment that takes three months in eight days. Although he has yet to acknowledge me when we have seen each other around town, he was polite and understood that he was responsible for causing the situation. His mother, however, was livid. She called me and berated me over why I let her son do all the work for the other MBs he needed (apparently he completed 3 MBs on a Saturday, inlcuding Citizen of the Nation and World), but then wouldn't work with her son on Personal Managment. I "cheated her son out of the chance to be an Eagle Scout".

 

I have since found out her anger was mostly over a $3,000.00 scholarship her son could have received form his college had he made Eagle.

 

I love Dave's explaination of a Pallidin. I think the truly righteous person would follow these same guidelines.

 

As I have mentioned in at least one other thread, I view one of my responsiblities as Advancement Chair as protecting the honor of being an Eagle Scout. I will do whatever I can to help a Scout get there. But I make this promise to all of you who are Eagle Scouts: No one who does not meet your standards will join your club if I can avoid it. I made one mistake in this regard once. It won't happen again.

 

Mark

[mk9750]

I noticed my last post conflicts with one earlier in this thread. Now I'm not sure I remember whether it was Personal Management or Family Life. I think more likely it was Personal Management.

 

Sorry for the confusion, if any.

 

Mark

[Eagle74]

Two thoughts:

 

Don't do the wrong thing for the right reason;

Don't do the right thing for the wrong reason;

Do the right thing for the right reason.

 

Ever notice that the "Last-Minute Eagle" usually takes more than he gives. There is rarely a return on the investment for those who made it possible (here today, gone tomorrow).

[Fat Old Guy]

"But, I worked with him enough to know that he simply lacked discipline."

 

As my doctor explained it to me, ADHD (the Artist Formerly Known as ADD)with or without hyperactivity is caused by part A of the brain not communicating well with part B. Part B is the part that says, "hey let's go chase a squirrel" and Part A is the part that say, "no, we gotta do our homework now and we can chase squirrels later." In short, there is a lack of internal discipline. You can subject an ADHD afflicted person to all sorts of external discipline and even get him to do things promptly on command. However, without extensive counseling on coping strategies and possibly medication, just getting ready for school on time can be a great challenge for the ADHD afflicted child.

 

People with ADHD have done great things in science and engineering because their minds race unfettered. Einstein and Edison are both now beleived to have suffered from ADHD. Imagine what they might not have done if they had been medicated to behave normally.

[Fat Old Guy]

It is too bad that no one can collect statistics on how many Eagles are self-motivated and how many are parent driven. How many 17.5 year Eagles are because Mom or Dad realized that Eagle would help with the Scholarship and how many 13.5 year Eagles are for the same reason.

 

I've had a number of parents tell me, "My son's not getting his license until he makes Eagle." I've heard, "he can't go on Spring break if he doesn't get his Eagle work done." The best one may be, "I'm making my son go back into Boy Scouts so he can get Eagle. It looks good on his college applications."

 

Is this any different than the poor kid who wants to play the flute but his dad makes him play basketball for ten years?

 

There's a Disney movie about the twins who played basketball and wound up in the WNBA. If the movie is accurate, the father was a wacko. Everything may have worked out for them but how many kids have wacky parents and don't make the NBA?

 

Some say that the wacky parents are trying to live vicariously through their kids because they didn't succeed in their own lives. That may be true for some but the others seem to want their offspring to follow in their footsteps instead of making their own path.

[RuddBaron]

Why do we need to medicate when discipline and guidance works? Better to learn to control one's self with influence of drugs. I've seen it work plenty of times. A lot of it comes down to being raised improperly and medication being an easier solution to "little Johnny not wanting to settle down." While there are legitimate cases of ADHD that warrant medical attention, it has been diagnosed far too much.

 

Einstein wasn't normal? Well, perhaps his "abnormality" allowed him to see things in the new and different way that he did. Then again, maybe his genius only made him APPEAR abnormal.

[Fat Old Guy]

Thank you Dr. RuddBaron. Just for the record, what medical school did you attend and where did you complete your various doctorates?

 

 

[RuddBaron]

Various doctorates, ole boy? Just how many does one need?

[dan]

As a father with a son with ADD not ADHD, they are 2 different things. Most people on the forum do not have a clue what it is and how it effects children. Or how hard it is for them. I wish the scouts in your troop good luck. Because after reading some these threads, I worry for them.

[Fat Old Guy]

Dan, according to our family doctor, the people who name illnesses have eliminated ADD from official diagnoses. Now there is ADHD and ADHD without hyperactivity. I know it makes no sense but sometimes the name games that doctors play make no sense. However, ADD is embeded in our social consciousness just like people still speak of "juvenile diabetes" even though the names for the various types of diabetes have changed.

 

Another example, there was a dramatic increase in the number of girls diagnosed as having "premature puberty." What did the American Academy of Pediatrics do about the problem? They lowered the age defining premature puberty.

 

Rudd, how many doctorates does one need? Some need one, some need many. I had an engineering professor who had a Ph.D. in Psychology and a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering. On the way to the Psych. PhD, he became fascinated with electronics so he went back to school.

 

 

[RuddBaron]

"I wish the scouts in your troop good luck. Because after reading some these threads, I worry for them."

 

Rest, rest, perturbed spirit!

 

No need for personal attacks here, though I stand, as did Napoleon, with my breast laid bare, ready to accept your volley.