Assistant Patrol Leader not counted for advancement

[adamkyr]

The upper ranks require a certain amount of time that a Scout has to fill a leadership position. Noticably abscent from the list of acceptable leadership positions is Assistant Patrol Leader. In our troop, this position requires demonstrating more responsibility than many of the accepted positions. Any idea on why this position is not acceptable for rank advancement?

[KoreaScouter]

As defined by BSA, the APL does not have to attend JLT, is not a default member of the PLC, does not have to attend PLC meetings, and his main role is similar to that of the backup quarterback...except when his team wins the super bowl, the backup gets the ring, too, even if he never took a snap.

 

The requirement gives leaders some flexibility, though, in that it allows consideration for leadership projects the Scoutmaster selects. In the troop I server, the APLs are required to attend JLT, both at troop and District levels, they are PLC members, they are expected to attend PLC meetings, they're issued PL handbooks, and are basically on the hook as much as the PL is. After all, if the PL can't attend a meeting or outing, how can anyone expect the APL to step in smoothly if they haven't had the training, planning experience, and so on? What I've found is that there is considerably less drama if a PL is late or a no-show, since the APLs have the same tools and training as the PLs.

 

Case in point, we had a PL who spent most of the summer with grandparents in the US. APL took the patrol to spring camporee, summer camp, an overnighter, a museum outing; led the patrol at troop meetings, service projects; and represented them at PLC meetings. Does he deserve leadership credit for those 2 1/2 months? Absolutely, and using the "leadership project assigned by the SM" option, he can get it.

 

Now, I'll be the first to admit that the patrol scribe probably doesn't warrant Star leadership credit, no matter how well he maintains the patrol record book...he's not really leading anything. And, I would only consider APL suitable for Star advancement. There's a fair number of First Class Scouts who need meaningful leadership experience and not enough elected/appointed positions to go around. Granted, APL can be a "figurehead" position, but if you engage your APLs like we do, it's a different matter, and not a "freebie".

 

Okay, I'm ready to get beat up...

 

KS

[Bob White]

Korea Scouter,

As they say on Family Feud "Good Answer, Good Answer!"

Bob

[Compass]

KS, you can come out from behind that tree. Home run answer!

 

Of course, your mileage may vary. In almost every troop I've been in or seen, the APL position is not much of a leadership position. He is oftentimes a gopher for the PL or is just one of the guys. Unlike KS's situation, most APLs do not attend the PLC unless the PL is absent. Like KS describes, when the APL has to step up to the plate, he is often clueless.

 

I'm not saying this is good, I'm just describing what is typical.

 

KS may be on to something...

[hops_scout]

Right now I am an assistant patrol leader in my troop. I attend almost all PLC meetings even though our patrol leader is usaully there.

[k9gold-scout]

If an APL needs to receive credit for leadership, he can take another ledership job that will count for advancement.

 

[LauraT7]

We have about 20 (all active) boys in our troop. 6 are not 1st class yet, about 3 of those are only a few requirements short. The rest are 1st class, star and 2 life scouts. That means we have a preponderance of boys that need "leadership" roles, and not enough roles to go around.

 

In addition, we have 3 boys (Tenderfoot and 2nd class) who are moderately to severe ADHD / learning disabled and organizationally - they may likely never be capable of being a PL (my son among them) these three have been with the troop 2 - 3 years and are still working on their lower ranks.

 

Are you saying that sometime, they HAVE to be PL's to get their Life rank? or can they do it by being a den cheif or something else?

 

(I can see two of these boys being a den chief, or something that doesn't depend on organizational skills, but one barely speaks - I can't think of any "position of responsibility" he could take on that was not 'assigned by the SM')

[evmori]

LauraT7,

How many patrols are there for these 20 Scouts? I'll assume 3 for my example. Each patrol can have it's own quartermaster. That's 3 positions. What about Den Chiefs? Can any of these Scouts play the Bugle?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob58]

I only skimmed the other posts but... we recently visited a unit that elects PL's twice a year (I'm not sure about SPL.) They've 50 boys, four patrols and a dynamite program. The 6 month tenure could work in a small, growing troop that committed to training their Junior Leaders. To KS, did the young man not hold any other leadership position. It sure sounds as if he has the right stuff.

[OldGreyEagle]

Laura, remember, if a scout is verifiably handicaped alternative advancement requirements may be substituted. Check with your Advancement Chair or District Advancement Chair.

[acco40]

A SM may, as KoreaScouter has eloquently stated, assign leadership projects/positions. However, regardless how trivial a SM feels a troop scribe postion is, the rules dictate that it is a leadership position.

 

In regards to "taking" a leadership position as k9-goldscout suggest; leadership positions are are either appointed (by SM) or elected (by youth) and not "taken."

[mk9750]

Our Troop currently has three patrols with @ 40 boys. Except that each patrol has its own quartermaster (to whom the Troop Quartermaster dispenses gear when a patrol needs Troop gear), the patrols only other leadership positions are PL and APL. At a Troop level, we have all of the standard positions, plus a webmaster. We hold elections every 6 months, however, as I described in another thread, our elections seem to be a stepping stone process, where mostly everyone just moves up a notch. Den Chiefs are identified and assigned, but they only qualify for credit as a leadership position if they have been able to fulfill the function. This doesn't always happen, because packs don't always accept our offer to provide Den Chiefs.

 

With this structure, we still have absolutely no problem with boys lacking leadership positions when they need them. I suspect that there are a couple of reasons for this. First, the boys seem to know who needs or will be needing a position, and find a way to elect those that do (I think we don't get the best leaders like that, but it does kind of make me feel good they try to take care of each other that way), and secondly, we tend to not have many positions filled by Scouts less than 1st Class, meaning those positions are available to the boys that need them for their next rank. If you have a lot of Tenderfoots and 2nd Class Scouts being Scribe, for instance, the likelihood is that the job will not get done as effectively as if it were done by a higher rank, older Scout. This is because maturity has to help a boy do a better job, and... (waiting for Bob White to jump on me...) our Scoutmaster conferences and Boards of Review require conversation and some evidence of effectiveness in a leadership position. I started to type "luckily", but decided to scratch it because it isn't luck that causes our youth leaders to generally meet the expectations of their position. They know in advance that "effective" leadership is our criteria, and most work to meet that expectation. And "effective" to us does not mean absence of failure. If it did, no one would advance in our Troop. But it does mean that first, the boy recieved training, second, he put significant effort into the job, and third, he learned from both his sucesses and his failures. In my 6 years with the Troop, two people have been held back for not meeting this standard, and one of them was my son. I supported the decision 100%, as I know how little effort he put into his first responsiblity. It was the best thing Scouting has done for him. He now takes all of his responsiblities more seriously most of the time (he is only 13!). He does better in school, he is a better Scout and a better leader, and he actively participates in our Troop level JLT as an instructor now (the adults have joked that if he is the example of the results we would get by holding a kid to a higher standard BEFORE he advances, we aught to arbitrarily hold them all back! LOL).

 

Man, I promised myself I wasn't going to allow this to get long. Sorry! Point is, I believe there are plenty of leadership positions available if handled properly.

 

Mark

[KoreaScouter]

Let me clarify something on the scribe...when compared APL with the scribe as far as leadership credit goes, I referred to the patrol scribe, not the troop scribe. We have a troop scribe, and I know the troop scribe position is eligible for leadership credit by definition. What I was trying to do was point out the differences in the scope of authority and responsibility between an APL and a PATROL scribe. Again, this depends on how a troop trains and employs their APLs, and ultimately on a case-by-case basis, whether or not the APLs have an opportunity to use what they've learned and prepared for.

 

Personally, I don't find it as easy as shoving pegs into holes. For example, our feeder Pack asked for Den Chiefs for every one of their dens. There's no way I could do that many; not enough sets of nostrils. I did, however, have several Scouts who were old enough, and had the rank. But, I didn't think they'd make good Den Chiefs because of other commitments, desire to work with Cubs, etc. So I only provided one, to the Webelos 2 den. What to do with the others? Troop jobs on the "approved" list, but would have less program impact if they didn't show up or didn't cut the mustard...

 

How about another look at the subject of the string: APL not counted for advancement. Why isn't it, and Troop Librarian is (not picking on librarians, just using it as an example.)?

 

KS

[k9gold-scout]

When I said Take a job, I meant that the SM wouild appoint the job to the scout whed he asks to do it. This is the way I have seen it hapen in most troops. If a scout just wants to advance with any leadership job he may not do it. He needs to have some idea what is expected to receive credit for leadership.

[KoreaScouter]

Yup. In my line of work, we call it defining the task, the condition, and the standard. You can't just tell a Scout he's the Chaplain Aide without telling him what he needs to do, training him from the JL handbook, and providing feedback as he's going along...

 

KS