yaworski Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Last night a confused parent said that they had found the 1st Class requirements online and they didn't jive with what was in the book. Sho' 'nuff she was right. Why does BSA changes requirements in mid-stream? Why don't they just wait until the next release of the Handbook? Better yet, why do they keep eliminating requirements? This time, the water survival is gone. What's next, the swim test? Lashings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sctmom Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 The water survival was taken out January of 2002. It does jive with what is in the 2002 Requirements book. The swimming merit badge also changed. How many boys were NEVER making first class because of that water survival skill of using your pants as a flotation device? From what I hear it was holding up a lot and making A LOT of them drop out of scouting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaworski Posted October 11, 2002 Author Share Posted October 11, 2002 "From what I hear it was holding up a lot and making A LOT of them drop out of scouting." So? Why not remove all difficult requirements? What's more important, retention or learning? I know, according to BSA it is retention and advancement. It seems that kids today are programmed to quit rather than overcome obstacles. "I can't hit the ball so I'm quitting baseball." "I'm not a starter on the team so I'm quitting football." "I didn't get the lead in the play so I'm quitting drama club." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Actually I would have thought todays excessively baggy pants would make a heck of a lot better flotation device than the tight flared jeans I used back in the mid 60's I heard the reason it was taken out was because a scout would never be on a boat without an approved PFD in the first place rendering this requirement obsolete. Cant say for sure. Cant say it was any harder on our kids than swimming the distance they have to for first class. The confused parent Yaworksi talks about does bring up a point of consideration. You cant always beleive the internet (Reference Pierre Salinger who held a press conference to say the US military was responsible for shooting down that jet over Long Island because he read it on the internet)(sic)There are a lot of sites with Boy Scout requirements listed, it is a situation of caveat emptor, be sure the requirements you see are the current ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle74 Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 The water survival requirements (clothing flotation) were not originally part of the 1st Class swimming requirements; they were part of the Swimming Merit Badge. For us "old guys" that requirement was added "recently." In fact, by 1972, swimming in any form was not required for 1st Class and the Swimming Merit Badge was no longer specifically required. (Boy Scout Handbook 1965, 1972, 1979. Requirement Book 1969, 1972. BW will be proud.) I don't have time at the moment to go through all the books to present for a complete history. So yaworski, we're not really dumbing-down the requirements by much if viewed from a historical perspective. I tend to agree with not having the clothing flotation as a part of the 1st Class requirements, rather I think they should be part of the Swimming Merit Badge. I think the requirment should show skill as a capable swimmer and being able to maintain a resting float. But then again, I think that Swimming Merit Badge should still be an Eagle required badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaworski Posted October 11, 2002 Author Share Posted October 11, 2002 In a classic BSA move, their own web site (www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancement/first.html) still shows the "floating pants" requirement. But the web site for usscouts.org has the current information. I still want to know why they like to change things without changing the publications. Oh sure, they have extra books that you can buy but why not just release a new edition of the handbook? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sctmom Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Yaworski, I do have to agree that they could update the handbook. It doesn't mean they have to redesign the whole thing, just update a few pages. The BSA website is almost useless at times. I don't find it any more dependable than most other websites. Why don't they have a page that says "this year's requirement changes"? I have never found anything on the BSA website about how to contact National. They don't even tell you the name of the head guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle90 Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 We had a problem in our area with the Clothes survival requirement in that almost all of the local pools in the area would not allow a scout to jump into their pool with clothes on. Thus,about the only place this could be done was at summer camp, and in many cases this would delay the first class advancement many months. I agree with it being in the MB but not 1st Class requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdriddle Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 If you can find people to be honest enough, some troops have admitted to letting that requirement slide. I know of boys who were allowed to hang on the side of the pool and they still counted it. That teaches a worse lesson than moving the requirement to the swimming merit badge in my opinion. Probably, enough people complained about kids not being able to do it or that the troops were signing it off regardless that they decided to change it. Sheila Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaworski Posted October 11, 2002 Author Share Posted October 11, 2002 "The BSA website is almost useless at times. I don't find it any more dependable than most other websites. Why don't they have a page that says "this year's requirement changes"? I have never found anything on the BSA website about how to contact National. They don't even tell you the name of the head guys. " It seems that more useful information is found on the USScouting.org web site. Contact information for BSA would be nice. All current forms in PDF format would be another nice thing. Alas, we may never see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 usscouts.org is one of the best Scouting sites on the web! Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compass Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 Why does BSA change requirements in mid-stream? I don't know. Compelling reasons, I hope. I do know that we had the same problem as Eagle90 in finding a pool that would allow a boy to jump in with clothes on. I also know that every one of our boys completed it at summer camp, but I was plenty worried that a third wouldn't make it. One boy, due to his family's religious convictions, had to wear pants on top of pants (shedding the outer pair for the test)! Eeeek! But Eagle74 is right, it wasn't a 1C requirement until somewhat recently. I tell my son that, when I was a boy, it was a swimming MB requirement. I think he likes hearing that. Hmmph! The respect I get... Dumbing down the program? Hope not. But, if a requirement prevents a big portion of boys from advancing further, then you've got to weigh the loss of boys verses maintaining program integrity and challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaworski Posted October 12, 2002 Author Share Posted October 12, 2002 " One boy, due to his family's religious convictions, had to wear pants on top of pants (shedding the outer pair for the test)! " I hope that his god or gods would fogive him for shedding his trousers when he fell off a boat for real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compass Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 >I hope that his god or gods would fogive him for shedding his trousers when he fell off a boat for real.< Oh, I would imagine He would. I guess they had strong convictions about modesty. Never seen (or experienced) this before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraT7 Posted November 23, 2002 Share Posted November 23, 2002 you're not the only one who had problems with taking clothes and stuff in a public pool - we can get away with it at out local high school, mostly because they aren't there when we use the pool. They let us in, and trust us to meet their requirements (they require a Red cross lifegard - but they never actually check) We get the life guard AND follow the BSA Safe swim requirements. But our city pool, and all the other public and most private (health club) pools won't even allow you to take appropriate PFD's into the water! (they say this tempts people to trust the PFD's and not monitor their kids adequately - which is generally true!)Clothes as a life saving device? I haven't heard of this being recommened anywhere but in scouting. Yeah - I had to do it as a kid in Girl Scouts, too - but if you were REALLY in danger - my personal opinion is that you would put yourself in more danger by tiring yourself out faster taking off and blowing up your clothes, flailing around in the water, losing body heat, hyperventilating and attracting sharks than you would gain by the short term flotation your clothes might provide. You'd be better off conserving your energy or looking for a piece of floating wreakage or other survivors who were bright enough to keep their PFDS on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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