Scout Rank and Rewards

[sctmom]

So, does your troop give scouts with higher rank any special privileges? Does a Tenderfoot have to do whatever a Star Scout says just because of the badge? If yes to either of those questions, why?

 

[eagle90]

No, sctmom, we do not give any special privileges as a scout advances other than the natural ones that come from the normal chain of command. The older and higher ranked scouts are normally the PL's, SPL, and JASM, and in the course of their repsonsibilities they may request a lower ranked scout to do something. But it is in the vein of leadership and not special privilege.

[ScoutPro]

I use rewards or special privileges for rank advancements, not in having scouts boss others around but instead as rewards toward achieving rank. So does the BSA, for example OA is such a program along with COPE, also many summer camps offer special privileges for rank.

 

Little things make the difference, so kids that advance see rewards associated with advancing while those that dont advance only receive those awards theyve achieved. To make FCFY, in our unit you should attend summer camp, but if you do not then you must attend more of the meetings and attend campouts.

 

Ive found that by allowing rank to achieve some special privileges you have more kids advancing. For example, if you want to go or do XXX then you must be of a certain rank. If I let every kid that wanted to do activity XXnotX do it without regards to rank then I would have the same program for all without any acknowledgement for their work.Again this is my unit and our program as this is what works for me, if its not to someones liking then fine.

 

In my unit there is plenty to do, so you do not suffer because of less rank advancements. But during the year there are one or two additional activities that youre allowed to do that makes scouting more fun and exciting. Eating first, or being allowed to stay up later on campouts, like allow all scouts over FC one extra hour before bed as an example; one of my units treats kids all the same and that works for them, but my Eagle and advancement is higher than any other unit in council. I believe it is directly related to a yearly schedule that works with the ranks to make an overall program that kids want to excel in.

 

We go canoeing and everyone goes and loves it. But, early in the spring we canoe a faster river and do fifty miles a float. If youre not at least FC and at least 14 years of age youre not doing it. Kids look forward to those extra privileges, so yes, I believe extra privileges go with earning the rank.

 

[Bob White]

The Scouting program offers different activities based on age and First Class skill levels. The reason is to accomodate the changing needs of youth as they age, not to reward or restrict based on advancement. COPE for instance has an age limit to accomodate physical strength required for some events. OA has a rank requirement because you are expected to have sufficient camping skills which are represented in the First Class requirements. No BSA Boy Scout activities have restrictions other than a specific age (usually 13) by a given date and First Class skills.

 

In my son's troop there are special activities based on age, to accomodate the level of challenge and adventure that an older youth is ready for and craving to participate in. A 13 year old does not have the same physical capabilities or social and emotional needs as a 16 year old scout has regardless of what rank they each hold. It is not the rank that determines their needs it is their age and stage of maturation.

 

For younger scouts the incentive in advancement is the recognition and positive reinforcement that a boy receives from youth and adult leaders as they learn new skills. For the scouts working on the first three ranks they often do not realize they are advancing. They participate in the program and advance as a by-product of their activity.

 

Older scouts are not motivated in the same way. As they become more independent so does their personal response to motivation. Scouts will advance to upper ranks along very different paths and for different reasons. However their interest in high adventure seems almost universal in their age group. Physical growth, and a need for independence, drives them to more physically challenging activities. A strong Troop program realizes the changing needs of boys as they age and makes sure there are elements of the troop activity to accomodate that.

 

Bob White

 

[sctmom]

I see the need for age restrictions for certain activities, because of ability to think quickly. Such as white water rafting, many outfitters place age and size restrictions on certain rivers. That's not just a Scouting thing. I can even see requiring certain training before some high adventure activities --- first aid or swimming for example.

 

I just don't get the talk of rank gives you the right to boss somebody else around. First of all, "bossing" is not leadership. Each patrol and troop have elected leaders to assign tasks to get a job done. If the PL is a lower rank than one of the patrol members, then who is "higher" on the food chain? Doing what your commanding officer tells you in the military is different than anything in scouting.

 

Reaching First Class should be an emphasis because it shows that the boy has the required skills to be comfortable in the out doors and on adventures. (I learned that on THIS board! )

 

A new, young ASM in my son's troop told me that higher ranks can tell lower ranks what to do and they better do it. Again, that is not leadership, that is "bossing". I don't think the troop does this as a policy just more of how this young man views it. I do see a lot of "bossing" going on between the boys. Which leads to a lot of arguing. Also, they had a rule going of "Eagle Scouts can hang out in the Adult area whenever they please. And they can tell the others to go away (and sound really nasty about it too)."

 

Also, I read in the Scout handbook last night about how each member of a patrol should be assigned or in charge of what they do best. This is a good practice for the real world. The best teams I've been on at work are the ones where each person did what they were good at and everyone was a leader in some aspect of the job. Everyone helped each other and respected each other's strong points.

 

Does every Life Scout have better leadership skills and scouting skills than every First Class Scout? You would hope so, but not necessarily.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

You're right sctmom, nowhere does the scouting program treat advancement rank as military ranks. they are a symbol of personal accomplishment not authority.

 

You are also correct that bossing people around is not leadership. Understanding peoples strengths, needs and characteristics and using that information to develop people around you in order to accomplish tasks. That's leadership.

 

The methods of the BSA do not include the type of leadership you describe taking place in your troop. Your leaders need to continue their training or get retrained. Thaey have forgotten more about the program then they remember.

 

Good luck,

Bob White

[OldGreyEagle]

One of my favorite movies of all times is "White Christmas", you know, Bing Crosby, Danny Kay, et al.

 

I remember in particular a scene when the Bing Crosby character is rememiscing about General Waverly, the now down on his luck owner of the ski lodge. Bing remembers

 

"First the men ate, then he ate... first the men slept and he slept..."

 

I always thought that was the perfect description of a leader, putting his needs subordinate to the needs of the group. I can think of no better role model to follow than an older scout who is helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful to me.

 

 

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[sctmom]

OGE, Thanks for the movie example. I was thinking the same thing but could not come up with a concrete example.

 

I recently saw a show on PBS about General MacArthur. He was a very effective leader, his men loved him. Why? Because he didn't ask his men to do anything that he wasn't willing to do. He was the first one on the battle field. If the troops were doing without, so was he. Men who were on the Batton Death March still remember what a great guy MacArthur was and how they KNEW he was serious when he said "I shall return." They knew that meant HE would personally return, not just send the army. Great example of leadership.

[ScoutPro]

Sctmom, bossing kids around because of rank is not proper and it may (and most likely will) lead to a lot of other problems. So, if youre referring to using rank as a means to becoming a boss thats not proper nor would I consider that leadership. Within the troop you should have a SPL and PL's they are the youths in charge regardless of the rank.

 

We use rank for ways to improve upon the recognition without detracting from the proper patrol method. If you want to reward kids that achieved more, fine. I would not hesitate taking every kid to McDonalds that earned a certain rank, or advanced, or achieved X number of merit badges. As the age group changes recognition is different and if it just means a handshake and that works then I would say thats fine too.

 

But I would not have a system in place where rank means you boss little kids around.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

[rlculver415]

I am beginning to wonder where the scouters are whenever the boy leadership does this bossing based on rank. RHIP is not the BSA way! Boy-lead efforts must always be adult supervised.

 

The only "priveleges" I have seen include:

 

1) Age-based special programs, like learning SCUBA,

 

2) Rewards given to scouts who go the extra mile in service. This is often a solo effort,

 

3) The annual Moose Lodge dinner, which our Life and above serve. They get a fine prime rib dinner out of it.

[Venturer2002]

rlculver415,

 

"Boy-lead efforts must always be adult supervised. "

 

That statement is untrue. Check both the SPL's and the Scoutmaster's handbook, each talks about patrol activities, some without adults present. This is a great part of scouting, if you take that away from the boys in your Troop you're butchering the program.

 

That's not to say that the youth leadership should be young or inexperienced. That's why each independent patrol activity must meet prior approval of the Scoutmaster. If their plans are lacking, some help is in order. Let the boys run the Troop, I know it's hard, but it makes it easier for the adults in the long run.

 

 

[rlculver415]

Venturer2002 -

 

I understand what you are saying, and I am aware that sometimes patrols have activities without adults present. That is a great thing about this program, and one I wish was used more often in our troop.

 

The misunderstanding is semantical. I did not mean that adults must always be present, or that they are to tell boys what to do and how. Even if this behavior occurred on a boy-only event, it is still a bad thing and one the scouters ought to correct (in a properly discreet manner). I'd bet it's pretty blatant at troop functions, too, so the adults have an opportunity to observe and correct erroneous thinking. This would include that of the young ASM. That is supervision - the overseeing of how the group as a whole or in part functions.

 

I hope I have been more clear this time. I apologize for the confusion.

[Venturer2002]

rlculver415,

 

glad to hear it! I may have been a little rash, it's just that I like to see the program implemented correctly, and you certainly could see where someone may have drawn the same conclusion I did.

 

the main topic here is the validity of RHIP, in terms of power over the new scouts or other low-ranking members of the Troop, I agree 100% with your position.

 

This question should stir the other posters up a bit:

Do you consider it wrong to line up for chow-time in order of rank, either ascending or descending?

[Bob White]

When would a patrol ever need to line up for chow other than at a dining hall for summer camp?

[Eagle74]

As I just finished planning for a Troop JLT campout this coming weekend, I couldn't help but think that some of what I think I'm hearing here is in conflict with the JLT principles of good leadership.

 

If you haven't gone through the Junior Leader Training process, at least through the Troop JLT, I would recommend it. The canned program from BSA could use some work, but it is a good baseline.

 

While we call them "rank" advancements, simply "advancement" or "skill" advancement might solve some of this problem. (Begs the question of how an organization with two "rank" structures within itself - "ranks" & "leadership positions" - can function effectively.) To me, a Scout of a higher "rank", simply indicates that the Scout has achieved a wider and more advanced array of skill sets. I see the higher "ranking" Scout's role as a coach, whose broader experience and knowledge (should) serve to have others learn from him.

 

Leadership roles (chain of command, if you will) should come from within the leadership positions within the troop, regardless of "rank". Yes, a 1st Class Patrol Leader directing a Life Scout can create an odd situation, but this is a leadership in life lesson. The most experienced and trained individual is not always the "boss". Hopefully, the 1st Class Scout comes to understand that his role as a leader includes being able to utilize the knowledge and experience of the Life Scout to his advantage. Hopefully, the Life Scout has already learned, or will learn, that what he has to offer makes him a valuable member of the team and an asset to his patrol leader. Also, that if he selflessly and in a coaching manner helps that patrol leader along, the team becomes that much stronger.

 

While beyond a thorough level of understanding for some Scouts, especially younger ones, this is a Situational Leadership lesson. Then again, I've taught this concept to even young junior leaders and have had them come away with a better understanding than some adults.

 

Simply food for thought.