1st Class / First Year follow-up

[Bob White]

You are correct ASM7,

First Class emphasis is a tool just as the other methods of scouting. It is one of the devices we use to achieve the 3 aims of the program. It is one that is described in the Boy Scout handbook, the Scoutmaster Handbook and in Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training. It is designed to help transition from Webelos dens to Boy Scout patrols, retain new scouts, and better prepare them for social interaction with older scouts, as well as give thenm the basic skills for being comforatble camping. It has been part of the scouting program for many, many years.

 

If scouts in a troop do not reach First Class around the time of their first year it is a reflection of weak a program. Scouts do not stay long in weak programs. As evidence to that there are posters on this board who admit to not using FCFY and also admit to a 50% drop off rate.

 

What concerns me to the point of anger is some peoples determination to live with the loss of 50% of new scouts rather than embrace the First Class First Year program.

 

The Patrol Method lays out a troop structure of New Scout patrols, Regular patrols and Venture patrols. FCFY is a central part of the New Scout Patrol. One without the other is pointless. Without the use of the patrol method it just ISN"T scouting. That's not my opinion that is Baden-Powell's, the patrol method is what the entire program is based on.

 

Does any scout resourse say you HAVE TO use the patrol method? No. But without it it is not scouting.

 

So to purposely recuit boys into a program and call it scouting without using scouting methods to me seems like gross misrepresentation.

 

If people want to run their own program that's fine, but have the courtesy to not call it scouting.

 

Bob White

[Bob White]

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[ASM7]

Bob White

Thanks for agreeing with me, but I'm not sure what we are agreeing on. The Scoutmaster Handbook lists the methods of Scouting on pages 8-9, but does not say anything about a new scout patrol. However, it is mentioned in the boy led patrol section where it states that many troops have new scout patrols. I agree that the new scout patrol is a good idea. The handbook also says that patrols of less than five members is seldom very efficient. So, if you only have a couple of new scouts, it may be better for them to be in a regular patrol. When I was in scouts as a boy, we only had regular patrols. It seemed to work fine. As far as what is and is not scouting. The Lone Scout program may have a problem with your patrol statement.

Just because a scout doesn't reach FC by the first year doesn't automatically denote a weak program. Too many factors to say that. We could also come to a conclusion that a troop where every boy made first class in the first year was making it too easy for them. Scouts leave for different reasons. I imagine that there are troops that lose 50% that use the FCFY program also. I tend to throw my attention on the scouts that are in our program and not the ones that left. The fact that boys leave the program is the big reason for 1 or 2 Eagles in 100. As far as what B-P said and wrote or used in his books, the BSA might have some problems with some of that today. You notice we only use select quotes. In his Aids to Scoutmasters, he never mentioned the new scout patrol. I especially find interesting the text he uses from Mr. Casson from Teacher's World Magazine about the complicated nature of the boy and the three F's. Very good reading.

[Bob White]

B-P never taught the current first aid-skills either. As time progresses the program changes to better serve today's youth. The New Scout Patrol and FC Emphasis help to meet the social and educational and self-esteem needs of the scouts.

 

Where does it say the trail to First Class should be hard? Look at the requirements, unless you are a non-swimmer these are all very basic skills. If taught correctly they are easy to learn and apply. If your program doesn't create all the learning and application opportunities a participating scout needs to reach First Class near their first year then yes, you have a weak program. It will reflect in a high membership loss, poor skills, poor participation, weak patrols and reduced percentage of scouts achieving higher ranks.

 

By the way your Eagle statistics are about a decade old. It's been a long time since only one or two percent reached Eagle. For years it has been 3%. Last year it was over 4% and this year if the current rate continues it will exceed 5%.

 

Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[ASM7]

Bob

I thought you were agreeing. I said we use the FYFC program. Our program is by the book and top notch. We have had some boys leave because they want things given to them. I don't think anything about the FC skills is hard, although some boys are too lazy to even try. And yes, the motivation and leadership is there.

Whether it's 3,4, or 5 percent Eagle, it's still low. Is it a weak program? No. Are the opportunities there? Yes. Are the requirements harder than going from TF to FC? No. Since any merit badge can be earned prior to FC, why the sudden drop in percentage attaining FC and those attaining Eagle? It's like I said, too many other factors.

[Bob White]

Keep in mind AS7 the current rate is the highest in the 90 plus years of the program. It is not a low percentage if you look at the total history of the BSA. Why isn't it higher. A big reason is the tremendous drop of rate following Webelos Crossover through the 1st year of scouting. Much of which is attributed to the large number of units that do not use the New Scout Patrol and First Class emphasis programs. In a previous string many units reported lossing 50% or more of their 1st year scouts every year. That is atrocious! It is also totally avoidable. A program that does not facilitate advancement is not going to hold the attention of a youth member, and bored scouts quit attending.

 

I am reminded of a survey that the BSA did about 10years ago (maybe more) where they followed up on hundred of scouts who, after receiving the Arrow of Light Award, quit Boy Scouts in less than 1 year. They also surveyed the scoutmaster of these scouts. Here is what they found. The top 3 reasons the SM said the boy left was conflicting activities, poor parental support and negative peer pressure.The scouts (ex-scouts) told another story. Their top 3 reasons were 1)Boring troop meetings 2)No adventure 3)No advancement. The lesson is that adults rationalize low mwmbership alot of ways but the reason troops fail to grow or boys fail to advance is POOR UNIT PROGRAM. A leader can make any excuse they want, but boys know why they leave, and units that grow in membership and retain older scouts know why they succeed.

 

Scouts need the the New Scout Patrol to adjust to the social, and operational changes between Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts and to learn the basics of outdoorsmanship so that they are comfortable in the outdoor classroom of scouting. They need to learn those things quickly so that they stay for the adventure and become self-motivated to continue to advance.

 

However as you read in this string, even long time "trained" scouters continue to avoid these methods. The biggest reason I have seen as a unit commissioner is 1) an unwillingness to grow with the program, or 2) lack of understanding of the program due to reluctance to attend training.

 

(As a side note ever notice how some leaders point to their Eagle count as measure of their ability to lead, but point to another troops Eagle count and if exceeds their own then they are labeled a "merit Badge Factory".) The truest measure of course is in the character of a single boy. But if you want to use numbers try these. A)what percentage of 1st year scouts stayed for a second year, B) What percentage of first year scouts reached First Class near the first year, C) What is the retention % of scouts 16 to 18 years old.)

 

Boy's don't advance or stay in a units that don't follow the program. New Scout Patrol and First Class First Year are part of that program.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

A Scout not reaching 1st Class in one year in no way indicates a weak program! Man, for someone who is so concerned about doing things the "Scout" way, Bob, you seem to be blinded by the program.

 

1st of all, the program is First Class Emphasis not First Class First Year. 2nd, you make judgements about units who don't follow what you feel is the "Scouting" way. It seems to me you feel the "Scouting" way is if it is in any BSA publication, it MUST BE DONE! I don't agree.

 

Bob, the first word in Boy Scouts is Boy. If all we are is people who push kids through the ranks & don't take the time to let them learn at their own pace then we are in this program for the wrong reason. The reason I have stayed long after my son earned his Eagle is I love the kids. They are fun and a joy to be around. I love teaching them about Scouting, Scouting Skills & life skills. If it takes a Scout two years to reach 1st Class so be it! If you think that is the sign of a weak program, Bob, then you are wrong. Remember a boy can be a Boy Scout until his 18th birthday. And since they can become Boy Scouts when they are 11, what is the big rush!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Ed, Ed, Ed,

Read the posts, I have refered to the program as First Class Emphasis in most cases. It is also known by, and refered to, as First Class First Year, a term you yourself have used in your posts.

 

Sure a boy can take 2 years or 7 years to reach First Class. The whole point of this thread, and one that most scouters comprehend and accept is..very few boys are going to wait that long.

 

If they don't get to First Class around the end of the first year - they leave. Boys need to learn at their own pace, most boys can absorb and display the skills leading to First Class in about a year. That is a good, active, effective, pace for most boys. Some will finish sooner some later. The program allows for both, but you need a plan, and that plan needs to take into consideration the fact that boys don't want to take two years to learn the basics. If your program doesn't meet those needs then you are not serving the boys the way you think you are.

 

Bob White

[ScoutPro]

Been away for a while, but I have to say it. Bob youre wrong. Dead wrong, and a scout not making it to FC in a year is NOT an indication of a weak program. You cannot make that conclusion.

 

Bob, I admire your dedication to the scouting program, but youre often too quick to quote a regulation, page, or make a comment regarding scouting based on the book. The handbooks in scouting are a guide not a bible.

 

Take a step back and listen to others as they present different points of view, if you and Ed both have good programs then Im happy for you both and for every kid you BOTH keep in scouting I thank you.

 

Keep in mind, theres more than one way to get there. Good luck to you both.

 

[Bob White]

Scout Pro,

 

Having visited nearly 100 or more troops in multiple councils, I can say with complete confidence that if the scouts you serve are not presented a program that offers the learning and application of all the requirements for First Class in or near the first 12 months, then you have a weak scouting program. If they are not advancing then they are not learning, doing, or attending or staying. All trademarks of a weak program.

 

I never equated the scout resources with the Bible. They are more like a recipe book. There is room for different seasonings to customize the dish, but there are also key ingredients that if changed will completely alter the outcome. Example.. An apple pie without apples is no longer an apple pie. Even if you put a familiar crust over it so that it looks like an apple pie it still isn't. Even if it still tastes good, it's not an apple pie. Continueing to call it an apple pie is a misrepresentation of the actual content.

 

There is room in the methods of scouting for local customization, but there are also key elements that if removed or not used, alters it from being a scouting program. Even if you wear a scout uniform, so that it looks like scouting scouting. Even if it's a "good" program, if it does not use the scout methods and accomplish the 3 aims of scouting IT'S NOT scouting.

 

Scouting is specific methods for a specific purpose. Ignore the methods, or miss the aims and it's not scouting, no matter how much camping you do, or how many Eagles you have, or how many years you have been doing it.

 

You cannot just brush off the training and literature of the BSA, they contain the promise and methods of scouting. They tell the how we do what we do and why we do it. They are the road maps of the program.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

Bob,

Wow. I guess you are always right! I must have a weak program since I don't use the 1st Class Emphasis. I must even have a weaker program since I don't have a New Scout Patrol! I must be a bad leader. I guess since my Troop has had eight Eagles in the last ten years has nothing to do with the strength of my program (we have had an average of 12 Scouts in the Troop over the last ten years).

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

I'll let the scouts and parents in the troop you serve determine the quality of your leadership. I can say that if you followed the program as presented in the Boy Scout Handbook and Scoutmaster training (which includes New Scout Patrols and First Class Emphasis) you would likely have a better program.

 

I would have to say that since you live in an area as populated as Pittsburgh and average about 12 boys that would raise a red flag to me as commissioner that something is wrong.

 

Perhaps you could try a New Scout Patrol this February and for a year have an Asst, SM focus with them on a FCFY program, you might see some very positive results. The worst that can happen is things will stay the same and you seem very comfortable with that. On the other hand, you might see more boys stay in the program and that I hope would be a good thing for the community.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[ScoutPro]

Bob,

 

Nice that you visit many troops too, like you, I visited several hundred units each year across the country and in the past 30 years Ive seen many different approaches. My troop this year had 9 new boys from the Cub Pack. We push the FCFY program too and you know what, I have 44 percent not going to make it and it maybe more a 50/50 split. I cover everything at least twice, sometimes 3 times so theres plenty of opportunity to get what you need. Unless I pencil whip the requirements, theyre not going to make it and Im not going to just give it to them.

 

I have a very strong program. The issue is not a weak program in many cases. You cannot advance if you do not participate. The reasons the kids dont participate are wide, but here are just some reasons that Ive seen in my unit and the units Ive talked with this year (no particular order):

 

1. Divorced parents and the weekend is their time with their other parent. We try to get that parent involved, but the feud between parents sometimes spills into scouting. If the parent with visiting rights is remarried then often there are issues there too. Sometimes they live in different areas, towns, states, etc. The list goes on.

2. Lazy parents that just dont seem to have the time to take them to the meeting. We dont require parents because we have plenty of adults so leadership is not the issue, they just cant be bothered with driving them to the meeting.

a. I did offer to pick kids up, and still will in an emergency, but I found I was being used so I stopped that. Now if I had a scout that just cannot make it because their parent cannot drive (for some reason) then Ill make arrangements.

3. Kids often dont know what fun theyll have so if their parent doesnt push/force them to go then many will take the easy way out and not go. Many parents of first year scouts baby them allowing them to quit.

a. Ive had kids show up for an outing crying, kicking, and screaming they didnt want to go. The parent forced them and they pouted the first several hours, but when it was time to go home he didnt want to go. He was having the time of his life.

b. My son made Eagle, years ago, and if I would NOT have made him go he would have quit several times. My wife and I have a rule, you start something you finish it. So the year he wanted to quit he was not allowed until it was time to renew his membership which by then he was over it. Too often, parents just allow them to quit.

c. I sent my daughter to a girls summer camp and she hated us and she thought we were the worst parents in the world. A week later, we could hardly get her to go home and now years later she still communicates with the girls she meet at camp and one of her leaders.

 

Youre right in saying that if the program is weak youll have problems, but even in top troops like ours, yours, and Eds you have kids not making FC. Sometimes it takes two years before they can make it and Ive had them out as long as three with some just never making it because they dont go camping. I have one young man thats been with me now 4 years, comes to every weekly troop meeting but has never gone camping once. I cannot advance him because he hasnt met the requirements for FC.

 

Ive tried different approaches and have talked to many others about their approach. I prefer to push them as in the FCFY philosophy, but also use a carrot stick approach that others seem to suggest and I do this year to year. Now, if I get only 5 of the 9 original crossovers to FC then the remaining 4 maybe held back and form another patrol with possibly next years crossovers.

 

Some things I use is to use rank to determine who eats first, or who can stay up later, or who can have two pops, and who can ride in what vehicle etc. I also use the Patrol Method and allow the patrols to do activities by themselves like during a hike. They are dropped off and given directions and a map and told to meet us that evening at camp. This works real well when a second year scout cannot not go because hes not FC so he has to go with the adults and the little kids.

 

[Mike Long]

Either I'm missing the point of FCFY or some of you are.

 

I thought the whole point of FCFY was to build a quality, exciting and fun scout program that gives first year scouts the OPPROTUNITY to EARN first class in one year. No to assure that 100% of them get first class in one year.

 

If they don't make First Class then get to work. Need help with anything?

[Bob White]

Sorry Scoutpro, but we are going to disagree on this one. 50% is way too low, and scout age boys crying not to go on outings should be raising some real red flags.

 

Consider your "incentive" program. Telling boys they can't participate and then saying that they don't participate enough to advance is ironic. What if instead of making them ride with the adults, you let them hike with their patrol so that they could work on a number of Tenderfoot to First class requirements? Rather than send them to bed earlier why not let them stay up and use the time to teach a skill or test a skill or have a motivational talk with them?

 

Instead of using rank to determine eating order, (If they are cooking by patrols, how is that even possible?) why not encourage the patrol leaders to work out duty rosters that allow scouts who need cooking requirements can get them done?

The best incentive program for advancing is the positive reinforcement they get when they accomplish something, not the negative reinforcement they are given when they don't accomplish something.

 

Parents and kids will make time for the things they enjoy doing. As Bill Hillcourt used to say "You have to be the best show in town". I grant you it's a challenge but it is doable when we follow the program.

 

By the way I never said I had a top troop. In fact I do not have a troop. My son has a troop. I serve his troop as an Assistant Scoutmaster for the New Scout Patrols. The troop currently has 14 new scouts (2 patrols). All but two joined in February the others in April. All are tenderfoot. The 8 going out this weekend will come back ready for their Scoutmaster Conferences and Board of Reviews for Second Class. The rest will finish on their next campout. None are more than 3 requirements from First Class.

 

No one has quit, attendance varies from week to week. Almost everyone is in a sport or band. All own computer games. Some have one parent some have two, one lives with the grandparents. Some parents help, some don't.

 

I have taught maybe three skill presentations. The two Troop Guides have done all the others. My job is to work with the guides on the annual plan to determine what skills get taught when and how we create application opportunities to test the scout's skill.

It's nothing magical or extraordinary on my part that makes this work. It's the scouting program. We follow it works.

 

I've used first class first year for over twenty years as a troop leader I have never seen more than 10% loss of new scout (or old for that mater)in any year. Again it's not me, it's the program. It's explained in the books and in training, and it works.

 

Bob White