Parents as MB Counselors

[evmori]

No aversion to whta is in the manuals. But, if we blindly follow the manuals, then we serve no purpose. Scouts can read.

 

You are correct in stating that nowhere in the program are we instructed to tell a boy what merit badge he should or should not be interested in. But nowhere in the manual does it say we can't.

 

I said this before & I will say it again, we must use common sense in Scouting. Reading all the manuals is great but if you apply them blindly, then you are doing the Scouts AND the program a large disservice.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White]

Just because leaders apply what is in the manual s does not mean it is done blindly. It is done with great vision. Refusing to use what you read would seem blind to me. All references to merit badges are quite clear. "The scout chooses his merit badge".

 

Bob White

[evmori]

and the Scoutmaster approves the Scout to work on the badge.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[sctmom]

As a parent of a scout, I hope the Scoutmaster will encourage my son to work on badges he is ready to work on. Especially as a new scout. I was thinking about that this weekend. Being a new scout my son needs to be focusing on scout skills, but earning merit badges is fun and rewarding for most boys (and girls). As I'm getting to know some of the boys in our troop, I'm starting to see certain merit badges they could work on. Badges about things they would have a great interest in but still be challenging. I see some merit badges I will point out to my son soon that he should work on alone. I think some of the boys and parents think they just work on the ones offered during troop and council activities and at summer camp.

 

If my son wants to work on a badge that will be difficult for his age, I hope the Scoutmaster will discuss it with him before just signing the blue card.

 

My 2 cents worth.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Bob and Ed, as much fun as it is watching you two butt heads, I have to join in. I think I understand both of your positions. Bob, your saying the Scoutmaster really cant refuse to let a scout work on a merit badge the scout wants to do, and Ed, you think the scoutmaster should apply some common sense to the process.

 

Now, if a brand new scout, age 11 years old wanted to do the Personnel Management merit badge, I would be hesitiant because at 11 most kids arent ready to understand most of the content of the badge and it may make more sense that this badge be earned when the scout is older. Bob, and Ed, what would both/either of you say about this?

 

Then another situation is shotgun shooting. Our summercamp uses 12 gauge shotguns, the troop has a standing policy that 11-12 year olds cant take the shotgun shooting merit badge at camp unless the family verifes the scout uses a 12 gauge. This is a safety issue to us. Bob and Ed, what do both/either of you think of this policy?

 

I think I see where you both are comming from, I would like to see some examples of what your positions are.

[Bob White]

OGE,

At 11-years old, many boys already have an allowance and deal with budgeting their money, either way this merit badge could be a great learning experience for them. If a scout wanted to begin working on it, it is his choice. Keep in mind also that that is not the type of badge most 11 year olds are drawn to.

 

The shotgun merit badge is different, if the family tells the scout not to work on a merit badge that is their priviledge. That is not the scoutmaster telling the scout what to do, he is simple following the wishes of the parents or guardians. Also remember that 12ga is not the only shotgun the scout can qualify on. There are lesser gauges that would be easirer for a smaller boy to handle safely that can be used.

 

I really don't think this is a matter of using common sense or not. If it were, common sense would tell us that the joy of being a scout leader is the fun of watching the growth of boys using the scouting methods.

 

There are leaders who don't think boys can lead, who don't think boys can elect leaders, who don't think boys can make good decisions or make bad decisions and learn from them, or choose the MB that interests them personally and be allowed to pursue it. So they see the job of scout leader is to tell boys what to do, in spite of the scouting methods.

 

This isn't a common sense issue, it is a control issue. I think some adults like teaching boys how to lead, while others like to lead boys.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

OGE,

Thanks for stepping in. In your 1st example, I agree. An 11 year old might get an allowance and might be able to save his money for something he wants but most 11 year olds don't know the meaning of thrifty! They see something & will pay whatever price they have to! Plus, there are many other parts to the Personal Management badge that 11 year olds wouldn't understand or even care about.

 

The summer camp my Troop goes to doesn't encourage 1st year Scouts to take rifle, archery or shotgun. I have only had one Scout take archery his 1st year and this was because he shot competetivly for his school and understood the safety aspects of the badge. The field sports badges are dangerous.

 

Common sense tells me that our job as adult leaders is to teach & guide the Scouts to be the best they can be. Also, we are responsible for their safety and well being when they are in our care. By allowing a Scout to sign up for a badge that is way over his head & that could him in a dangerous situation is not being a responsible adult PLUS setting a bad example for the Scouts.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White]

Scouting has always had shooting sports for scouts of all ages. Every leader who has ever been to a range, or read the Guide to Safe Scouting regs relating to shooting sports, knows the tremendous amount of safety used and demanded by the BSA.

 

Every shooting sport merit badge begins with the safety rules before the scout ever shoots. To say that scouting or scoutleaders are irresponsible in the way scouts learn these badges is laughable.

 

My own son earned archery MB at his first summer camp along with 36 other new scouts that attended that week. I would bet that hundreds of scouts nationwide get that badge their first year.

 

As far as whether or not they know what thrifty is...Why didn't someone help them to understand it as part of their Scout Badge requirements?

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Bob,

As much as I am enjoying this, it sounds like we need to agree to disagree.

 

I use common sense when dealing with most things. You tend to go to the manuals. Neither is wrong & both a right.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[fboisseau]

Bob and Ed,

I can see both of your perspective. A situation came up when my son was deciding what merit badges to take for his first summer camp. He decided to take the swimming and first aid. The swimming his SM had no problem with, the first aid was a different issue. We had not check out the prerequisite for the badge before hand and were not aware that he needed to complete the first aid requirement for 2nd and 1st class. Instead of saying no to the first aid badge, he explained the situation to my son and then told him if he could complete the prerequisite in the first few days of camp, he could join the first aid merit badge class. Too me this is the best of both worlds, he both followed the rules and also explained his issues with my son taking the badge. Ed, in your case I would suggest that instead of saying no to a badge you should explain to both the scout and the parent what your issues are with the scout taking the badge is and make sure that they understand. Bob, I can see Ed, position and I would much rather have a SM that would suggest that maybe, it might be better for my son to wait a year on a badge due to what ever factor, then to have my scout get to camp and have problems in earning the badge, because the SM keep quite.

 

[Bob White]

Don't misunderstand me fboisseau, I never said don't talk to the scout. Counseling is good. Helping the scout understand what will be expected for the MB is good. Deciding for the scout is wrong.

 

Bob

 

[evmori]

But approving what badges a Scout signed up for is right - according to the SM Handbook.

 

Common Sense must prevail!

 

Ed(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Bob White]

All the scouting handbooks say "the boy chooses", you rationalize taking that away from him any way you want. The handbook says "Boy" scouts.

 

Baden-Powell wrote "Don't do anything for a boy that a boy can do for himself". A boy is certainly capable of choosing what interests him, and the advancement program supports that.

 

Don't get me wrong Ed I'm not saying you can't control how the boys think or force them to do only the badges you think they should do. As the SM can do whatever the parents and committee let you do. I'm not expecting to change how you run the troop. But there are alot of other leaders who read these posts, and I'm hopeful I can influence others to let the scouts follow their individaul interests and make the trail to Eagle one that is personal to them, as it is promised in the handbooks and taught in the training courses of the BSA.

 

Bob White

 

 

[evmori]

Bob,

I agree that we need to be a positive influence on the Scouta and the people who read these forums. We also need to be practical.

 

I don't try to control the way my Scouts choose merit badges. All I do is try to guide them in choosing. I feel that is part (small one) of my job as SM. My major focus is teaching the Scouts what I can. I always tell them it's OK to make mistakes and I expect them to learn from their mistakes. And in most cases, they do.

 

Since I have been SM (1997) the Scouts in my Troop have a 75% completion rate of merit badges at summer camp. To me, the Scout are very successful. Did I not let a Scout take a merit badge because I felt he would not be able to understand it? Yes. Did I do the correct thing? I think so. One year, a second year Scout signed up for five merit badges -Environmental Science, Space Exploration, Fish & Wildlife Management, Soil & Water COnservation and Indian Lore. I counseled the Scout prior to camp explaining these merit badges required a lot of work & he might want to think about changing the ones he signed up for. He didn't and earned all five. Did he have a good time at summer camp? No. Why? Between his responsibilities as QM, patrol duties and merit badges he didn't have time to have fun. Did I do my job? No. Why? Because the Scout didn't enjoy summer camp. By the way, this boy is no longer in Scouting.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[KoreaScouter]

First, to answer the question, of course parents (as long as they're registered with BSA and approved as a counselor for that badge) can be MB counselors. Seems many of us have a sort of built-in "mistrust meter" in our unit policies that restrict this, restricts number of badges, etc. Great thing about the BSA system is that it's self-cleansing...at annual recharter time, if the troop committee determines a given counselor is not doing his job properly, that's the time to fix it.

 

I've really enjoyed the Bob White/Ed Mori tennis match here, and I've gotta go with Ed. While it's true (and admirable) that the advancement program is Scout-centered and self-determined, the unit leader fills a "firewall" role here. Using your logic, Bob, a Scout who wanted to apply for 15 merit badges simultaneously could demand signed blue cards if he's currently registered and counselors were available. This is ridiculous on its face. I've "redirected" Scouts to badges other than the ones they thought they wanted (Scouts didn't understand the requirements), throttled others back from what looked like a "badge hunt" to an endeavor more manageable/realistic/likely to succeed, or deferred a Scout until summer camp or the Troop monthly theme tied in with it (i.e., Fishing in September for us). Call it approval, counseling, supervision, or disco if you want to, but that's my responsibility. If I'm just rubber-stamping blue cards, any simian could be trained to do that. I repeat an oath every week that includes a promise to "do my best". If I knowingly let a Scout make a poor decision out of inexperience, ignorance, or overexuberance, then shame on me.

 

Do parents play a role? Certainly, but if they're not also Scouters, the inner workings of Scout Advancement can resemble the Papal election process for many of them -- they cede that supervision to the unit leader.

 

Do I sometimes not "approve" a Scout for a particular badge. Yes, but not often. For example, I didn't sign any Orienteering blue cards for summer camp this year, for a couple very good reasons that don't matter in this forum. All unit leaders, if they haven't experienced it yet, will learn this: Once you sign the blue card and refer the Scout to a registered counselor, you have no subsequent "vote" regarding the Scout's meeting the MB requirements. That's determined by the MB counselor. Even if you know that a counselor is mis-applying the requirements, you have no recourse...except at recharter time, or the next time a Scout asks for a signed blue card for that badge -- then, you need to find a different counselor for him.

 

KS