Hats On Hats Off

[Papadaddy]

"During the ceremony of hoisting or lowering the flag or when the flag is passing in a parade or in review, those present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens of other countries should stand at attention. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes."

 

I read and interpret Federal law in my job. There is a difference between "should" and "shall", my friend. As in, "you SHALL purchase health insurance or be fined by the IRS".

 

[Beavah]

LOL. I think I was callin' myself da stodgy old coot, Papadaddy.

 

Yep, da flag code codifies protocol, eh? It is the tradition put down in a written form. Not the same thing as a law with penalties and such.

 

Note that the Commander in Chief is authorized to change it at any time and in any manner by simple proclamation without action of Congress. That wouldn't be true of any real law.

 

Beavah

 

[SSScout]

Look at all the chappeau ads!!! Wonder how that happened? should we start talking about llamas again?

 

Beav, didn't we go thru this about 3 years ago? "Hat courtesy".

 

To wear or not to wear, and when, and where.

 

The flag code is a "guide", and that is what most (if not all) courtesy/manners/ettiquete is, a guide to respectful,courteous behavior. A Scout is Courteous, now THERE is a SM minute topic!

How does one slup soup, courteously? What to wear in a given situation? Uniform? Tie? T-shirt?

Hold open a door? For a female/lady/woman/man/kid? How many kids do you come across that say "yessir" and "no ma'am", or do they say "yeah?" Take your shoes off at someone's house? Certainly, if that is THEIR way.

 

Find "How to Be a Perfect Stranger" by Stuart Matlins and Arthur Magida. Recommend it.

 

[KC9DDI]

So I linked to the wrong part of the US Code - the correct link is http://uscode.house.gov/download/title_36.shtml

 

But there still doesn't seem to be a Chapter 10?

[shortridge]

Yeah, we go through this every once in a while, and each time someone with incorrect information starts talking about how the Flag Code is a federal law. It is in the U.S. Code, as is a statement that everyone should stand during the National Anthem. But this little thing called the First Amendment trumps both. If someone wants to chant "Down with America!" during a rendition of the Anthem, or sit while the flag passes, or keep their hat on and flipped backwards at all times, that's their right. Chai, I respect your service to our country, but what you were told is incorrect.

 

KC9DDI - This is what you were looking for. It's Title 4, Chapter 1. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title4/html/USCODE-2010-title4-chap1.htm

[fuzzievohs]

"If someone wants to chant "Down with America!" during a rendition of the Anthem, or sit while the flag passes, or keep their hat on and flipped backwards at all times, that's their right."

 

I wonder how many of us would be too busy properly standing at attention and saluting our Flag while some US Marine reminds such a person to mind their manners.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[drmbear]

It makes perfectly good sense to take your shoes off before entering someone's house, particularly your own. You know all the crap we walk through every time we go outside - in parking lots, public restrooms, bird droppings (and lots of other animal droppings), grease, tar, spit, and lots of other nasty stuff. Do you really want all that in your house, where your kids play on the floor, where you sleep. It is rediculous that anyone would have a problem with that - if it is okay for you to bring all that in on your shoes, is it also okay for you to spit on the floor or take a dump in the corner? My wife is Russian, and their tradition is to remove the shoes at the door, and it really makes sense in Russia where the nastiness of everything outdoors is beyond reason, but in reality it is also very dirty here as well. Mama makes everyone take off their shoes at the door, and we all know that if mama ain't happy, ain't no one happy!

[BDPT00]

To be clear ... I'm not talking about a stranger's hat. I'm talking about my own hat, my children's hats, and my Scouts' hats. They all know what's proper, because they've been taught.

I wish other adults would do the same with their charges.

How's that?

BDPT00

[shortridge]

There's a huge difference between manners - essentially doing what is right - and rights. Don't confuse the two.

 

We all have the right to do and say certain things. Is it necessarily the right thing to do to exercise those rights under certain circumstances? Perhaps not.

 

But we should all be aware of our collective rights, and not spread misinformation, especially to our youth. Members of our armed forces should be especially cognizant of this. This principle is as good as any I've come across: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[CalicoPenn]

So does it matter what kind of restaurant it is? McDonalds - hats on or off - and if its off, is it a battle worth pursuing? If hats are ok in McDonalds, at what level aren't they ok? Denny's? IHOP? Applebees?

 

What about at a sports bar near the ballpark after a game?

 

What about a cafeteria/restaurant associated with a botanical garden/arboretum/zoo?

 

Or does it only matter in one of those "finer" dining establishments?

 

And when does one take one's hat off? Upon entering the door? Upon being seated?

 

What if you're eating in an outdoor eating area - does the hat off rule apply to sidewalk or patio dining?

 

I tend to take my hat off when I'm seated - since I usually wear ball caps, I usually loop it through my belt (the part of the belt after it's been buckled that you tuck into a belt loop). I just prefer not to wear a hat when I'm eating (unless I'm outside). Maybe its because I was taught that hats are taken off when eating, but I think its really more of a personal preference. It doesn't bother me if other people keep their hats on when they eat. I just don't care. Only you can let what other people wear ruin your day. Why give strangers that kind of power over your happiness?

 

Kind of related, I remember reading and hearing about people lamenting the fact that men don't wear hats anymore like they used to. I think those articles were more prevalent in the 70's and 80's (which I attribute to it having become accepted by the 90's so who wants to write such an outdated article anymore). If that was true in the 70's and 80's, I don't think that's true anymore. Men are wearing hats - men commonly wear hats - they just aren't the fedoras and hats we think of from the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Look into a man's closet and I'd almost bet that 99% of us have at least one baseball style ballcap in it, if not more (heck, I have about 50 from various national parks and wildlife refuges). But I think they've become so commonly seen that we no longer really register that people are wearing them, or not. No one notices if you're wearing pants - we just expect that you are. I don't think most people notice if you're wearing a ballcap most of the time.

 

As for the national anthem, I don't give a rats patootie if you stand up or not for the national anthem. For all I know, you may have a very good reason for not standing up for it (when I got very sick with a lung disease and was on oxygen, it took a lot out of me to simply stand sometimes). What drives me nuts is people clapping for the national anthem while the national anthem is being sung - wait until it's over, people - some of us would rather hear Wayne Messmer's golden voice singing the national anthem than you clapping and whistling while he's singing.

[Beavah]

Yah, I think times have changed on da hat thing. Only took a few centuries. . I was out tonight at a moderately nice restaurant, and counted no fewer than 5 men in hats. Ballcaps and those Scottish golfer things. Not talkin' kids either. Older fellows the lot. None of 'em low -IQ day laborers either. The fellows near me were an engineer and a pilot buddy.

 

I was goin' to go 'round with Mrs. Beavah and see if any of 'em stood up or doffed their cap for her, but Mrs. Beavah said she'd have no part in such foolishness.

 

B

[MoosetheItalianBlacksmith]

Im always wearing a hat....so at one point i started asking people what they think modern hat curtosy is (call it a survey if ye want). The result ended up being the hat wearing policy i already follow.

 

Take it off for national anthems, take it off when you sit down to eat (you can wear it too and from table but not while sitting), take it off in the worshiping sections of churches, and if you go to sombodies house and they ask you too.

 

The people that try and tell me to do otherwise bother me. Its my hat and i am being curtious so leave me be. If for some reason i fail to follow one of the above rule by accident on a rare day then Ill gladly be told to remove my hat and ill apologize for having forgoten it.

 

Ill even take my hat off if its a uniform hat for national anthom and pledge of alligence cause the way i see it what the flag stands for is more important than any uniform i may be wearing with a hat.

 

other people wearing hats to eat can bother me but i generally am more willing to let the older gentlemen get away with it cause you dont know their life experiences. Teenagers on the other had just dont want to be bothered to take of their hat most of the time. (i can say it cause im not too far seperated from that time.)

 

As for taking my shoes off....i hate to do it anywhere cause my feet get cold. and i dont wanna weare other peoples shoes.

 

 

[Tampa Turtle]

When I was a wee boy (Kennedy/Johnson eras) men still wore hats. Also ties and at least a sport jacket. Since everyone is so casual now I think proper dress etiquette is largely lost; I do not think there is much of a hat norm.

 

On a digression I have noticed this at my church where the young ladies and young moms wear club-wear and mini-dresses now because they equate that with "dressy". It certainly is not modest though I must confess I find their display of pulchritude in conflict with me concentrating on more heavenly thoughts...

[drmbear]

I remember when I lived in Texas that there would often be men with their cowboy hats on while eating in restaurants. When I inquired why, realizing the general chivalry of the cowboy culture and thinking it odd they would still have their hats on, I found that there is a problem with finding a safe and clean place to put the hat down while eating. It ends up that the only reasonable place to put it is on their heads.

[Twocubdad]

Don't get me started on behavior during the National Anthem. How about the the twit singing who's trying to turn it in to an audition for American Idol. Do I get to be the surley British guy who rips him a new one? The best renditions of the anthem are the folks who ask everyone to sing along, then sing the tune as written so everyone CAN sing along. Spare me the artsy warbling toward the end.

 

Next are the yahoos who feel the need to let out a war cry at the end of every phrase. Used to be all the jackasses had to hollar after "land of the free", now it's through the entire song. A notible exception to this I will call the McHenry Rule. At a Ravens game, all the "Balimer" fans yelled "HERE!" after the phrase "that our flag was still there." Cool. I chalk that up to understandable patriotic pride.

 

Of course there are the miscellaneous morons who continue to mill about, talk, text and drink beer. A disgusted glare works well. If not try a swat to the back of their head with your own hat, followed by a quick apology -- "Oh, did I bump you? I am terribly sorry. I was TAKING MY HAT OFF FOR THE NATIONAL ANTHEM"

 

Back to the OP, I think hat ettiquete has changed. First of all, where are the hat check girls? I mean, what are you supposed to do with you hat? Take summer camp. 250 people with identical hats. What are we supposed to do with them? (I know you can tuck them the back of your belt, but that's beside the point.) And how about hat hair? After wearing a hat all day, I consider it a discourtesy to remove my hat in proper company. You guys remember Bill the Cat in Bloom County?

 

I am pleased to report that our summer camp has changed it's philosophy regarding hats in the dining hall. It only took six years of me **** ing and complaining. Used to be, the dining hall nazi, um, steward would come up behind a boy with a hat and snatch it off his head, then hold all the hats which only Scoutmasters could retreive. So we're teaching courtesy by assaulting our Scouts? Nice. Finally, they've decided the way to enforce the no hats rule is to politely remind the Scouts to remove them.

 

Now was that so hard?