When would you not let your scout go?

[qwazse]

We don't keep them from scouts as a punishment, but when it comes to school ...

 

We demand a lot from our kids. I tell them that less than straight A's is failure -- partly because they have it in 'em, partly because their aspirations demand flawless execution, partly because must step up for friends who would love to soar academically but severe mental disabilities get in the way, partly because the taxpayer paid for a teacher to present something to you and good citizenship demands you grasp it all.

 

So, if a B or lower is starting to appear, I tell them ...

1. Our religion is forgiving to failures, so I gotta still love you.

2. Tell us what needs to change so that you have success.

 

Sometimes it is scouts or sports, but more often than not it is the industrial entertainment complex.

[Engineer61]

I'm a little baffled by this idea that requiring school work to be completed in order to go to participate in an extracurricular is somehow "punishment" if the extracurricular is missed.

 

This is called prioritization and it happens in our adult lives every day.

 

It is quite common for me to have to consider dates, rearrange or even cancel weekend or longer vacations because my employer demands it.

 

How is one different from the other?

[moosetracker]

Wow Qwazse everyone always said I was hard because anything other then an A or B was failure.. Pretty much something I retained from what was expected of me when I grew up.. You are worse then me..

 

Never saw as punishment myself, in fact I rarely had to make the call, my son did it himself by figuring out his priorities. Of course sometimes we were in the dark of what was due, but then my son lost alot of sleep getting the assignment done before school.. Again not my call, just my figuring it out when he was still up at 1AM..

[Eagle707]

Tampa: I definitely did not mean to question your parenting at all so I apologize if it came across as such.

 

The only other thing I could even thing to suggest is what you seem to be doing already: "If you choose not to get homework done, you're choosing to skip Scouts" (though I'd only use that option if that is the ONLY way he can get homework done that night).

 

Best of luck.

 

[MoosetheItalianBlacksmith]

My parents made it real clear I had to get both done....and then left it as a choice to me on whether I was going to scouts or not.

 

This taught me to be a little more self sufficient and make my own decisions. They never kept me from going to scouts but on a very rare occasion I made that decision on my own.

 

It always felt so weird to not be there. And sometimes that strange-ness actually interrupted whatever I was doing and made it harder to do. So I didnt get a whole lot more done than if I had gone to scouts and did it after.

 

But I think that really is the best way to go about it....let the boys decide and let them fine tune and learn the decision making process. I always got everything done and not because I was up till one....I did that even when I didnt have homework.

 

Some rules and things like that make work for the short run.but in the end will end up biting you. I was always required to get As or Bs or it was a failing grade. I pretty much always did it but in the pursuit of those grade I gave up the fun and social interactions at school and now pretty much hate everything about school. Just a thought to consider.

 

[Beavah]

I pretty much always did it but in the pursuit of those grade I gave up the fun and social interactions at school and now pretty much hate everything about school. Just a thought to consider.

 

Yep, just wanted to highlight MoosedaItalianBlacksmith's comment. I reckon that's pretty much da way it works with teen boys most of the time.

 

Grades are just like Advancement, eh? They're a method, they're not da goal. If yeh turn 'em into the goal, sure as shootin' you'll make a mess of things. Or at least end up with a much weaker program and results.

 

Beavah

[qwazse]

Moose: Wow Qwazse everyone always said I was hard because anything other then an A or B was failure... You are worse then me..

 

When our kids told us they wanted to be an engineer, rocket scientist, and teacher/doctor/researcher, the bar was raised before they ever got letter grades!

 

We were very fortunate with our kids. They are blessed with a bright hardworking mom -- and lazy me who was smart enough to marry her. And unlike some of our friends, we dodged the hardships that make focusing on academics a chore.

 

MIB: I pretty much always did it but in the pursuit of those grade I gave up the fun and social interactions at school and now pretty much hate everything about school.

 

Funny, I gave up fun and social interactions at school for scouting. Don't hate anything about that! But don't worry, a healthy disdain for school means you might actually get a job with that education of yours!

[moosetracker]

So you get parent & son sides in this.. But, note that MIB agrees that we rarely forced him to give up extra curricular.. And although MIB being very s-l-o-w with homework the lack of social interactions are far more complex..

 

Part of it being living in very rural area where the child must either take the bus home, or choose to stay at school until about 5:30 pm when he can get picked up. And until about 6th grade he did stay at the school in a latch key program, and could choose to socialize or do homework. The program offered both and you could join extra-curricular after school programs that were taking place at the school..

 

Also where we lived had no kids his age withing walking distance, so visiting friends meant driving him to their house or inviting them over, which although we suggested it to him many times he rarely did (even over the summer months)..

 

Boyscouts was something we got him involved in to give him a much needed social life. Luckily after his Tiger year when he wasn't too happy with being "forced" into scouts.. He decided after summer camp to like it and stay with it.. (We told him he could quit if he so choose after Summer Camp.) With an exception of a very few other things, Scouts was his social life.

 

Even when he romantically interested in a girl, when she said "Let's be friend's".. His idea of friendship meant never calling her all summer long.. Some may have been "fear of the girl" and making the wrong move that would scare her off, but alot had to do with this was seriously what he thought friendship meant.

 

So the girl (who surprising decided to start dating and then get engaged to him, even after being "ignored" in my son's idea of what friendship means) has introduced my son to what a social life means.. And now he can look back and say "Boy, I missed out!" But, it was not all because we cracked a whip about grades and made him give up his social life.

 

Actually now in college although he has more of a social life then he did in grade school or high school, and although we know less aboutwhat he needs to accomplish in his courses, and although he states he hates school.. He seems to be keeping up his grades, in some ways even better then high school, and has found a way to speed up how he gets his schoolwork done in order to be able to find time for a social life..

 

So you might say all work and no play had MIB out of balance.. But alot of that inbalance was self-induced.

[momof2cubs]

This is something that has been in the back of my mind recently. As a 5th grader, my kid is already pretty swamped with homework. So far, I have not had to skip a scout activity because of school work, but it's been closed. I do not want to use scouting as a punishment. I consider it a part of his education and development.

 

However, I worry about next year. Middle school around here can be oppressive homework wise and by some twist of the school bus gods, it was determined that middle schoolers are the last to be dropped off at home (around 4:45). So I am very concerned about time management!

[Nike]

I am a bad parent. I don't let school or Scouts run our family life.

 

I have never told my elder son he couldn't do something because his homework wasn't finished or a project was due.

 

I have asked him how he intends to get everything done and participate in extra curriculars. He thinks about it and tells me his plan. I point out the flaws or pitfalls then leave it up to him. If he has to stay up past midnight, then he stays up. If he decides he needs to skip something, I remind him he needs to tell the activity sponsor in a timely manner.

 

Now will this work with Son #2 or the Pink Princess? Too early to tell.

[Tampa Turtle]

Eagle707 no offense taken,

 

My son is, err, a little more complicated than average. So I explained a bit more.

 

As for grades it depends if he is applying himself. He had a C in one class that I thought he had zero chance in passing and I know he fought, fought for that C...I was very proud. And he made an A in a class he is clearly a C student. So this year he is doing the best he has ever done in school. And yes we push him and it is tough; for him to do 15 minutes homework takes him 2 hours. So his free time goes out the window. So I appreciate his work ethic...it will serve him well later in life.

 

Prioritization not punishment; I like that. Obviously we make Scouts a pretty high priority but school is his job. He does not always do sports because it conflicts with scouts.

 

I think that school was easier in my ways when I was growing up in the 60's and 70's. Sure as heck did not have as much homework and boring assignments (whats with all worksheets!) Kids are under a lot of pressure.

 

 

[moosetracker]

Tampa Turtle - I agree with the heavy schoolwork load, at least with my son (who is a little older then yours) they had it easy up to probably 8th grade. So little homework I feared they weren't educating him. Then in 8th grade it all changed, I do not know if it was because it was middle school or that's about when "Leave no child behind" kicked in.. Anyway it seemed they just poured on way too much homework, like they were making up for the lost early years when they didn't do much with them.. It was crazy!! I think it settled down to a decent load by Junior year of HS..

 

With my son also being one who took 15 minutes worth of work and took 2 hours doing it, those middle years were tough!

 

Someone else mentioned a fear of when their son hit middle school.. I was hoping the would pick up the pace in the elementary years so as to even out the educational flow throughout all 12 years.. Sounds like they haven't done that..

 

Other problems I had with mid-school / high-school were that they never let them organize their own study habits.. Every year it was the teacher who forced what type of notebook system and other study habits they were to use.. Their way never was a style my son could adjust to, so it hurt him in school until he decided to organize it their way to be looked over and graded on in the first weeks of school.. Then change over to his own style.. You can guide them with study habits in the early years, but by high school you should accept they are individuals and each has a differing style of what will work for them.

 

The other thing was they were still coloring and making "pretty things" like copying and coloring maps on through high school.. Something that was busy work, with alot of time and effort, and little learning value. I guess they were trying to make learning "fun" but coloring looses it's appeal with many who are not artistically inclined when you get older..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[Engineer61]

Beav wrote:

 

"Grades are just like Advancement, eh? They're a method, they're not da goal."

 

That depends on your goal, now doesn't it. If you want to pump gas or dig ditches your whole life then sure...

 

But I don't think that'll work with your college entrance interview when they look at your High School transcripts and SAT/ACT scores.

 

With all the job applications I've ever filled out (and that's a large number) there is always a box for High School and College GPA's ... there is never a box for Boy Scouts.

[Tampa Turtle]

Engineer,

 

It does depend on the goal.

 

I came from a house that was a big believer in learning the material than the grades...better to stretch and get a B than stay in the comfort zone and get an A. Well I was a good B+ student who knew a lot about everything but didn't have good enough grades to get into the real competitive programs. But I enjoyed myself.

 

My son wants to go into the Military. Not my goal but his. Been like a laser since a wee lad. So he needs to stay physically fit, try to stay off disqualifying medication, and score high on the ASVAB to get into the slot he wants. As the ASVAB can be pretty demanding so we push him. He reaches his goals it just takes him a bit longer.

 

Gotta give the kid credit if I had to plow through the daily struggles he does I would have hung it up my now.

 

I think much of education now can be boring. It seems some of this, preach at them, have them fill in the blanks and color in the chart education has crept into Merit Badges. Big Mistake. I have boys come up to me (and I am not even their MB counselor) with a filled out Meritbadge.org worksheet saying "I have finished my Blah-blah Merit Badge" and I might say "The form is not the merit badge. Tell or show me what you have learned..." I get crazy looks.

 

Thankfully my son is not that way. He wants to do things.

[Beavah]

Yeh missed my point, E61. Maybe because you're not used to our Scouting lingo.

 

In Scouting, our goals are building character, fitness, and citizenship. That's what we care about in the end. That's the real "prize" we have to keep our eyes on as adults. I expect yeh feel the same way as a parent. Your real goals aren't good grades for your stepson. They're having him become a happy, responsible adult who enjoys whatever his career is and contributes to society.

 

To get to da goals of Scouting, we use a bunch of techniques, or "methods". The Outdoors is one, because being outdoors without all da modern conveniences helps teach responsibility and teamwork. Advancement is one, because having some external goals and motivation helps some boys develop internal goals and personal motivation.

 

But da point isn't Advancement, or "getting Eagle". It's developing a happy, internally-motivated and character-filled citizen. Advancement is just a tool, eh? Like all tools, it can be used well, or poorly. It can work for some kids/jobs, but be the wrong choice for other kids/jobs.

 

Same with grades, eh? Grades are just a tool da school uses to provide feedback. The goal is a lad who is interested in stuff, who knows how to do things. That's what every college wants. That's what we all want as parents and scouters, too, because that's what leads to happiness and success.

 

Focus too much on grades and yeh lose sight of the real goals. Put too much emphasis on grades and you'll get what yeh emphasized - but not what yeh really want. Better to keep your focus on the real goals. Love your son. Listen to him. Encourage his interests. Cheer for his victories, support his strengths, commiserate with his failures and shore up weaknesses, but don't make weaknesses a big deal.

 

Plenty of straight-A students end up face-down in the gutter. Plenty of high school drop outs end up as happy, well-off, productive citizens. Keep your eyes on da prize, not on the tool. The lads who succeed in college are the ones who have passionate interests, and can manage time across many activities. After freshman year, college success doesn't even correlate well with high school grades.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)