Boy / Girl Leadership

[Venividi]

dg98adams wrote:

 

I know the Crew that my Life Scout son goes to is managed more by the girls (including his twin sister) in the crew than the boys.

 

Are the Scouts burned out from providing leadership/direction to the Troop, maybe... probably.

 

Great topic for a discussion. Your observations are not unusual.

Ten or so years ago, Scouting magazine had an article by Michael Gurian. Gurian has written a number of books about boys, about the impact that changing society has on them. One of his comments that struck me was about that whenever girls step up, boys step back. I took a look at my kids middle school and high school yearbooks, and saw that it was true - in all of the student organizations in school, the majority of the organization officers were girls (70% or more). Service clubs such as Key Club didnt even have any male members. I pulled out my old yearbooks from the '70's, and better than half of club officers were boys. There has been a large change in the past 40 years.

 

Look at how boys and men are portrayed in popular culture - lovable slackers; arrested development, failure to launch. Self centered, looking for fun, avoiding responsibility. Look at college graduation rates - more than 50% of graduates are now women.

Look at high school, college, and young adults out for a night on the town. Girls are dressed to impress. Boys are wearing ratty t-shirts and old jeans.

 

I don't think that the boys are burnt out, I suspect that they are adapting to the prevalent culture. I'm going to have to go back and re-read Gurian's older books, and check out his new ones.

 

Anyone read any of his books lately, or have observations or experiences to share on boy vs girl leadership?

[momof2cubs]

At a dinner party last weekend, we were just discussing this. It was more related to the fact that we believed that boys were being left behind in the educational process in the zealotry for making sure girls don't. These days, young boys are required to sit still FOR HOURS in the classroom. When they cannot (because they are BOYS!!), they get labeled disruptive or worse (ADD/ADHD).

 

I think this has a lot to do with how they behave later on in life. And why I so very strongly believe in Boy Scouts remaining an all boy organization. I want it to remain that way so that it is tailored to them and they get a chance to shine and learn leadership skills.

 

A few weeks ago my son and I visited a troop. That particular day, the had more middle school boys than high school boys due to a band event at the local high school. At one point during the meeting they were singing some wild song and dancing and jumping like monkeys (having a great time) and it struck me how much boys need this. I also commented to another (male) leader that THIS is why boy scouts has to remain for boys. One single girl would have completely changed this dynamic and the boys wouldn't have been able to let off steam and act like themselves!

 

PS: in case it is not obvious and I get anti-feminist comments, let me point out that my handle here points out that I am in fact, a woman.

[skeptic]

Appears to me that the same thing is seen in the school student leadership. For whatever reason, there tends to be more girls than boys overall, especially in middle school levels. May be the issue "momof2cubs" notes, or simply a maturity and interest thing. I would go more for the latter in that by the end of high school, there appears to be more male participation in the schools too.

[qwazse]

I've observed the same with my crew, although it shifts back and forth. Sometimes the boys can come in, look at a list of potential activities and say "We gotta do X, Y, and Z, and that's it!" They spell it out, everyone buys in.

 

Girl scouts are really good organizers. 'Nuff said.

 

M2C - you don't have to be in an old boy's club to be anti-feminist. So if the shoe fits ... we promise not to throw it at you!

 

The co-ed thing, it works really well for high-school age kids. It takes a lot of work for middle-school kids, but don't worry. I've seen from youth groups who camp: if it's a group of girls whom the boys have grown to trust, the goofy will out!

 

That said, we're all comfortable with segregating the middle-school scouts so as long as we keep challenging GS to put out a strong outdoor program, things can stay the way they are. The parents who are frustrated with the status quo often tend to have daughters for whom GS is a poor fit. I have not met any parents of boys who wish they could have a program more like GS for their son.

[momof2cubs]

qwaze: I have heard it from several parents who have daughters and sons that they sure wished their daughters could join boy scouts. I will not be in favor of that. I think that as it was pointed out, girls are better organizers and they will take over troop/patrol leadership. That doesn't make girls "witches" (without the "w"). It's just that specially in middle school the maturity gap between boys and girls is HUGE. It means they are better at organizing things. And honestly, I get this weird feeling that they would get stuck also with the crappy jobs at camping, like cleaning and cooking. (I've seen this in cub scouts at the adult level - NEVER a male grubmaster do we have)

 

And my other fear is that BSA will pander to the girls a lot more and knot tying will give way to knitting, wood carving will give way to scrapbooking. And gawd! that does sound bad when I say it out loud, but I think you know what I mean.

 

I want my sons to experience boy scouts as it is and have the opportunity to be themselves without girls in ONE are of his life. They live in a co-ed world in all other ways. Including at home!

[Nike]

I asked my 16 year old son about this. He told me that boys are always aware of thier own perceived inadequacies and afraid the girls would notice.

[shortridge]

These days, young boys are required to sit still FOR HOURS in the classroom. When they cannot (because they are BOYS!!), they get labeled disruptive or worse (ADD/ADHD).

 

I read this and laughed ... because it reminded me of my daughter. She is seven, and under this description, is a boy. She is constitutionally incapable of staying still. Even when reading, she flops all over the couch, lies upside down, balances on the arm of the chair, etc.

 

Kids in general have a tremndous amount of energy they need to burn off in unstructured play. One of the worst things that modern education has done to kids is coop them up inside and cancel recess. At least that provided some outlet.

[qwazse]

M2C - I've seen it pan out (with jr. high youth groups on co-ed camping trips) the way you fear it would. I've also seen the opposite (girls take the lead, boys take the crap jobs). I've seen my crew start out with cliques along gender lines and by the end of the hike they realize they might get less lost if they work the map and compass together. In general, I've seen it go back and forth so much that I don't worry about it any more.

 

My SM made us scrapbook after every trip. A couple of boys had to put together a poster with pictures and captions so we could display them at the next court of honor. Our webmaster effectively is doing the same thing. And ...knitting is just a form of knot-work! They boys' lashings might be a bit tighter if the girls challenged them to ramp-it-up!

 

Again, I'm perfectly happy keeping things segregated as long as the GS moms in my community develop a strong outdoor program for their girls. If that keeps failing to happen, it makes it very difficult for the freshmen women in my crew to transition to our style of doing things. Both programs loose.

[kari_cardi]

I think too much emphasis is placed on gender and not enough on treating people as individual human beings. Our youth rise to our expectations. Expect the girls to lead and they will. Expect the guys to lead and they will. Expect the girls to cook and the guys to goof off, well, you've just given the guys they excuse they need and the girls might be hungry enough cook anyway. Expect everyone to work hard and participate in all the facets of a good outdoor program, and either they will do so or they will leave and find something else to do.

 

I'm not naive, I know there are differences between girls and boys. I'm raising both. But the gender differences are less than we make them out to be, are less than the personality differences inherent in each person in my experience.

[momof2cubs]

shortridge: you are right about that, it may not be an exclusive boy issue..but it is manifesting itself in the boys more. When I am reviewing stuff with my son for an upcoming test, he has to walk around, jump, move his arms, and even demonstrate (i.e. how sharks swim) while reciting. Some girls are like that too (I was), but they are more likely to be able to sit quietly for longer periods of time than boys.

 

SP: you got a point there too. Mommas tend to become very controlling in trying to ensure their cubs eat and that they eat well. While I still do this with my Bear, I am letting go with my Webelos II. He's learning at camping that he eats what's presented (or helped cook) or he goes hungry.

 

And sasha: maybe. We do generalize, but probably for a reason.

[Cambridgeskip]

I think Sasha has it right here, much of this is about expectations. Being in the UK I have a coed troop. I've seen boys that when faced with a girl who has matured quicker than they have (and that is a biological fact of life) have stepped up to the mark because we have expected them to, I've also seen them decide that there is no way they can compete so don't, normally when as adults we took our eye off the ball. Itreally is about expectations.

 

On that food issue cooking does have to be spread around all scouts of all ages. The fact is that where ever you are in the world being able to cook, whether that is on a wood fire in the middle of nowhere or in a proper kitchen, is one of the most important practical skills that we can pass on to young people. It keeps them fit, healthy, gives a potential career and provides them with a very civilised way of socialising.

 

Grub's up folks!

[BS-87]

Nike hit the nail on the head.

 

Boy Scouts is for boys only because boys have a much different way of acting with each other than they do when girls are present. They become very self-conscious around girls because they view girls as very judgmental. This may be true and it may not be true, but despite its veracity it's the perception.

 

I'd say girls probably are more judgmental though, based mostly on how they treat each other. (who hasn't seen the drama of a cat-fight interrupt their unit committee?)