A scout is obedient.

[fred8033]

Many scouting terms are interpreted very differently by different people. "Boy led." "Active." "Earned." "twenty nights of camping." Those terms have all been discussed and debated to death.

 

There is one term that few people discuss and debate and I think it causes huge problems. "A scout is obedient." Many leaders think of "obedient" as a scout is submissive and will do what you say without question. Yeah, and pigs fly.

 

In my opinion, we, as leaders, need to be careful to not spout extra rules to make our lives easier. Scouting is for the youth. We are looking to build character, not to box it in. We need to avoid frustration when we don't have the Normal Rockwell scouting experience. Instead, we need to focus on what the scouts want to get out of the event and influencing how the scouts treat each other and how they work together. Very little of that involves creating more rules.

[Beavah]

Yah, Fred8033, I don't know if there's somethin' particular that prompted the need get that off your chest, eh? . But I agree with yeh.

 

My personal definition of "a scout is obedient" is something like "a scout knows when to follow as well as when to lead. Being a good follower means recognizing that sometimes yeh cheerfully support a wrong decision, because that's better for the group than gripin' and moanin' about it. It means taking on tasks you'd prefer not to because that's what the group needs. It's a choice of honor and care for others, eh?

 

That doesn't mean yeh always follow. There are times when following does more harm for the group then good. There are times to lead, too, even if it's lead the revolution.

 

A PL merits the obedience of his patrol by being the cool guy who demonstrates honor and commitment and care for his guys, so they learn to reciprocate and support him in turn. Same with a Scoutmaster or adult.

 

Beavah

[fred8033]

Nothing specific happened. It's just always dancing in the back of my mind as I reflect about my troop and my personal interactions with scouts. Especially as I see others who do it very differently. The topic is always in my head as I read other topics.

 

I think each of us has had moments where we think "glad our son is not in their troop". Of course, I'm sure others have thought that our troop too.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[Gary_Miller]

Why don't you just use the definition in the Scout Handbook. After all thats what the book is for.

 

A Scout is obedient. A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he seeks to have them changed in an orderly way.

 

 

[Tampa Turtle]

Gosh Gary --that's just crazy enough to work. Pass that book over here -hey its got knots in it too!

[fred8033]

Gary_Miller wrote: "Why don't you just use the definition in the Scout Handbook. After all thats what the book is for. .... A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. "

 

The trouble is what are the rules? Many places say the rules are the scout oath and law. I'm okay with that. It's worked well in our troop. But what happens when adult leaders start pulling rules and punishments out of thin air? What happens when the scouts don't have any realistic timely way to get the rules "changed in an orderly way"? Are they dammed to suffer the situation? Adults pretty much get to ignore any extra rules. Scouts can only submit.

 

I've seen it with new leaders in our troop, in neighbor troops and in my son's Jamboree troop.

 

- Jamboree troop - Couldn't leave camp site without t-shirt tucked in even though it's a 100+ degrees. His home troop doesn't do that. I read the Jamboree leaders manual. It wasn't in there. Scouts from other troops were allowed to not tuck in their t-shirts. My son had no choice to choose the troop, the leadership or to change to troops.

 

- Forgot dishes on table - Must sing a song in front of all these people you barely know. In his home troop, we consider it emotional abuse and violating the scout law: friendly, kind, courteous, helpful, loyal. We make it clear to the scouts that hazing is not the scout way and does not reflect the type of people we want you to become.

 

- "Shine flashlight in my eyes again and you lose it forever. I've got a whole collection." Really? How about just asking the scout to be courteous and explaining it hurts your eyes. If your eyes are that bad, perhaps you want to reconsider camping.

 

- Two scouts 30 minutes late from curfew and the whole troop has to leave the event activity an hour early the next day. These scouts have to talk a mile or more between locations and wait in long lines for their activities. And then kids that barely know the other kids are going to be punished as a result?

 

- What happens when a scout wants to go on an event that is explicitly advertised as the rules are the scout oath and law, then they have a final organizational meeting a week before the event where 60+ minutes are listing specific rules and consequences? There is no time to change troops, to change the rules or to get your money back. Scouts must submit.

 

I just think we as leaders need to think carefully as we apply "obedient" and be a bit more obedient to what we promised our scouts. Scouting is supposed to be about the scout's experience, not our whims.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

That noise you hear in the background is an axe being ground to a fine edge...

 

Not to say that Fred doesnt have a point however...

[Basementdweller]

Fred not sure about your scouting background, I am not trying to insult you.

 

Ya know being SM at on a Jambo trip is probably difficult.....a bunch of scouts you barely know

 

Far as flashlights in the eyes, it has been my experience that it is the same scout over and over and over again......Removing the flashlight and returning it after they are headed to the tent gets the point a crossed. No rules, but it is a courtesy thing, and some boys don't have a lick of manners.

 

We had a young man who made us late for breakfast as summer camp the first two mornings because of his morning routine. So we got him up an hour early to start his thing....... Was it against the rules for him to make the entire group late, nope, bad manners for sure. Was it against the rules for the adults to get him up an hour early nope, bad manners probably.

 

 

A parting thought........you said rules make the adult leaderships life easier.....I disagree completely......The incidents you pointed out are about manners.

 

It would be easier for the adults to ignore the dishes on the table

It would be easier for the adults to ignore the curfew violation

It would be easier for the adults to ignore the untucked shirts

It would be easier for the adults to ignore the flashlight to the eyes.

 

 

Seems to me they are just trying to instill some respect and manners and you don't like it.

 

 

It has absolutely nothing to do with obedience.

 

[Eagle92]

A few things

 

1) I'm one of those old fogey's that remind scouts that if they wear the uniform, they need to wear it correctly, tuck in the shirt. And yes the T-shirt is part of the activity uniform. However I know that if you are doing stuff, the shirt may come untucked and don't have a problem while you are doing stuff. But it uniforming.

 

2)Forgetting things and singing for them, while that may have been the norm back in the day, heck I remember singing for stuff, it is now considered hazing by BSA, and can be reported. NCS talked about this, other trainings talked about it, and PDL-1 even mentioned it being hazing when it was done at my class.

 

 

3)Agree need to ask them not to shine in the eyes. However if after repeated attempts to correct the offender don't work, I have politely shown the offender why it is important to aim for the chest by shining a light in their eyes. I've only done that less than a handful of times as usually talking to them works

 

4) Being late for curfew is a big deal. I have seen what can happen to scouts after a curfew. While I do not think the group should be punished, I do think the two folks should have a talking to. Depending upon the severity of the situation, they may need to be punished. If they were late coming home after an event at Jambo due to crowds and what not, I may remind them to better manage their time.

 

 

Now I do have a few questions for ya, and please do not take offense.

 

1) How was the Jambo troop organized? By that I mean was it organized by districts and did you get a chance to meet the leaders and learn about them prior to the event.

 

2) How many prep trips did the jambo troop do prior to jambo? My jambo trip also did a HA trip in Canada, so we were meeting about 18-24 months out, doing training campouts andfundraisers. So we got to know folks, both leaders and scouts in our patrol.

 

 

[perdidochas]

I do help with a "tucked-in shirt" troop, but, honestly, the new uniforms have the cuts in the side so that IMHO, they are appropriate for untucked wear. Also, where in Scout guidelines (not troop guidelines) does it say the shirt has to be tucked?

[Eagle92]

Peri,

 

In regards to tucking in, I cannot remember seeing a picture of a scout that had an untucked shirt in any BSA literature, except when it's an picture of the scouts in action.

 

Also the uniform inspection sheet says "the basic rule is neatness." grant you that is in regards to the Field Uniform, but can be interpreted for all uniforms.

 

I agree the new squared off cut off the new shirts do allow the shirt to be worn untucked, but I haven't seen a picture with that being the case. Using common sense, you can deduce that the shirt is to be tucked since all official photos have the shirt tucked in.

 

But back to my questions: how were the troops organized, and how long did they meet prior to jambo?

[fred8033]

OldGreyEagle, Basementdweller, Eagle92: You are all very polite and respectful. Thank you.

 

...

 

There may be a bit of a axe to grind. My son and several of our other scouts have not had positive experiences dealing with other scouting leaders.

 

I think one failing I've had is learning scouting at the same time as my son. He's taken some of the training with me and he knows scouting very well. 150+ nights of camping. Camp staff. Most troop positions. As I've dealt with incidents, we've learned together the real rules. The last incident before his jamboree was when another unit leader had a scout sing a song in front of other scouts to get his dishes back. I was upset because I could see the humiliation in the scout's eyes and I hated the lesson it taught.

 

But, we never discussed when to just grin and bear it. Or even more importantly ... how to constructively speak up and protest rules when in a group. Of course, it's hard for an adult speaking to an authority figure and very very difficult for a youth speaking to an authority figure.

 

...

 

I've learned our troop leaders need to coach / advise / warn our scouts when working with other troops or hooking up with H.A. or jamoboree contingents. Over the last five years, we've had eight or so scouts join us from other troops. My observation is that the transition has been painless.

 

The opposite is not true depending on which of our scouts and who the outside leader is. Some of our hardest working and most interesting scouts have had significant trouble when working with outside leaders. Usually, because they know the BSA rules just fine, but they have no way to work an orderly rules change when told extra arbitrary rules.

 

...

 

To avoid listing a litany of examples from the years, let's stay to one: tucking in t-shirts at the Jamboree. It's really a minor one, but I think it is illustrative.

 

...

 

At Jamboree, the troop required the scouts to tuck in their t-shirts. Other troops did not require it. Scouts could be seen all the time with untucked t-shirts. For this troop though, it was tuck in or you can't leave camp.

 

I've never found it mentioned anywhere saying scouts must tuck in their t-shirts. It's not part of any official uniform, period. It's not stated in the insignia guide. There's no t-shirt inspection guide.

 

Many people have strong opinions. My wife says it's the "beat me up at recess look" or prissy. (She's a country girl. I'm a city boy. She's always telling our youngest to untuck his t-shirts. I honestly think he doesn't realize his shirts get stuck in his pants when he pulls them up. He's only six.)

 

My question is why? These kids came from different troops that have styles. The kids were there for the Jamboree adventure and the highlight of their scouting experience, not to create the Normal Rockwell troop. The troop was only a mechanism to get to the Jamboree. So, why choose a restrictive rule that can only frustrate and that can't be found in any literature.

 

In our troop, our scouts pass the uniform inspection sheets just fine. They do it every few meetings. The winning patrol gets a bag of candy to share. But, they don't tuck in their t-shirts.

 

...

 

My opinion is that if you want to create such rules, do it with your own scouts in your own troop. They probably won't notice or protest as it's the only practice they know. But if they don't like it, they can leave your troop and join another. Don't do it with scouts where your only real responsibility is to get them through the event safely. Keep to the rules as published by BSA. No more. No less. If you feel the need to create rules, only adopt really important rules and avoid creating trival rules. (tucking in t-shirts, dishes on table, ...)

 

...

 

Of course it would be one thing if it was just creating one rule. Scouts can always survive a few new rules. But it's rarely just one or two. It's always more. My experience with scouts is that the more rules and boundaries you create the more the rules (and you) are tested and challenged. The scouts will feel boxed in and you will see worse behavior. It just creates a bad experience for everyone.

 

...

 

Our troop has created rules too, but the rules are more like "on a high adventure hike, the hikers only travel as fast as the slowest person" or "when canoeing the canoes should stay together so that the last canoe can see the first."

 

Other than that, why box in the scout when our role is to support and open the world to the scout?

 

....

 

 

1) How was the Jambo troop organized? By that I mean was it organized by districts and did you get a chance to meet the leaders and learn about them prior to the event.

 

ANSWER: COUNCIL CHOSEN. BY DISTRICT generally, but not strictly. Did not get to know the leaders before we were financially committed. Got to know the leaders through a few camping trips.

 

2) How many prep trips did the jambo troop do prior to jambo? My jambo trip also did a HA trip in Canada, so we were meeting about 18-24 months out, doing training campouts andfundraisers. So we got to know folks, both leaders and scouts in our patrol.

 

ANSWER: Three, but he only got to the last one with his troop. He was bounced around as the council consolidated jamboree troops. He also worked full time as camp staff. He wanted the jamboree, not the smaller events. (learning experience for both of us.) As a 16/17 year old, he had "been there, done that". For his out-of-troop high adventure, he only met the contingent once before leaving for the trip. It went fine.

 

[Engineer61]

"We are looking to build character, not to box it in."

 

I beg to differ.

 

Character, both good and bad are "built". As such, we should make sure that we "box" the good character into the youth, leaving the bad character traits out.

 

BSA does not have the corner on this ability...it largely settles with the parent.

[Basementdweller]

Plus how do you do this one hours a week and maybe one weekend a month.

 

 

[Beavah]

My wife says it's the "beat me up at recess look" or prissy. (She's a country girl. I'm a city boy. She's always telling our youngest to untuck his t-shirts.

 

LOL. Yah, I gotta say I agree with Mrs. fred8033. T-shirts haven't been worn tucked in since da 1950s.

 

I think there is a real courtesy issue here, though. Now maybe it's just because I'm a council fellow, so I tend to view things a bit from that side of the world. Da role of a district or council volunteer is to support the unit volunteers and chartered organizations in THEIR program. That's our only reason for being, and it demands a deep and abidin' respect for and courtesy toward the unit volunteers who give so much of their time to the boys.

 

So if you're a council scouter who is helpin' out as a jamboree contingent adult, yeh have to view your role as helpin' da unit leaders provide a program and service which they can't do themselves. And that means yeh respect da boys and their unit norms as much as yeh can. All da fun is in workin' with great kids from different troops and helpin' 'em build friendships and connections with each other that strengthen scouting in all their programs. Yeh support youth leadership in da jambo patrol, and involve 'em in decisions. If yeh let the lads set expectations for each other, they do a far better job than some adult fashionista.

 

Yeh certainly don't make T-shirt tucking a hill to die on, and yeh dispense with the treat-em-like-little-kids stuff. These are the senior scouts of your council's programs, and should be treated as such. Unlike what clothes yeh wear, that is a real issue of courtesy. Folks who don't get that have no business being council volunteers for a jambo contingent.

 

Now, from da youth side of course, being obedient means knowin' when to follow, eh? And sometimes, that means havin' the maturity to recognize when an adult leader is in over his/her head and is makin' arbitrary rules because they don't know how to really lead in a new and challenging situation. That's a lot to ask of a young fellow, but being supportive and understandin' is sometimes more a matter of Kindness than Obedience, eh?

 

Beavah