If EDGE is bad/wrong/poor, How do you Teach Youth to Teac

[bnelon44]

EDGE is an easly method to teach a skill. It isn't the end all or be all. But kids remember it.

 

I haven't read all this thread, but didn't B-P use a method similar to EDGE at Brownsea?

 

He explained with they were going to learn and why it was important to learn it. Usually with gripping stories that boys understand. Then the next day he or someone he asked to, would demonstrate and guide the Scouts through the skill. Then they would have games to enable the Scouts to utilize the skills.

 

The following is B.-P.'s report on the camp:

 

"The troop of boys was divided up into 'Patrols' of five, the senior boy in each being Patrol Leader. This organization was the secret of our success. Each Patrol Leader was given full responsibility for the behaviour of his patrol at all times, in camp and in the field. The patrol was the unit of work or play, and each patrol was camped in a separate spot. The boys were put 'on their honour' to carry out orders. Responsibility and competitive rivalry were thus at once established, and a good standard of development was ensured throughout the troop from day to day. The troop was trained progressively in the subjects of scouting. Every night one patrol went on duty as night picket - that is, drew rations of flour, meat, vegetables, tea, etc., and went out to some indicated spot to bivouac for the night. Each boy had his greatcoat and blankets, cooking-pot and matches. On arrival at the spot, fires were lit and suppers cooked, after which sentries were posted and bivouac formed. The picket was scouted by Patrol Leaders of other patrols and myself, at some time before eleven p.m., after which the sentries were withdrawn and picket settled down for the night.

 

" We found the best way of imparting theoretical instruction was to give it out in short instalments with ample illustrative examples when sitting round the camp-fire or otherwise resting, and with demonstrations in the practice hour before breakfast. A formal lecture is apt to bore the boys. "The practice was then carried out in competitions and schemes.

 

"For example, take one detail of the subject, 'Observation' - namely tracking.

 

1. At the camp-fire overnight we would tell the boys some interesting instance of the value of being able to track.(EXPLAIN)

 

2. Next morning we would teach them to read tracks by making footmarks at different places, and showing how to read them and to deduce their meaning. (DEMONSTRATE AND GUIDE)

 

3. In the afternoon we would have a game, such as 'deer- stalking', in which one boy went off as the 'deer', with half a dozen tennis balls in his bag. Twenty minutes later four 'hunters' went off after him, following his tracks, each armed with a tennis ball. The deer, after going a mile or two, would hide and endeavour to ambush his hunters, and so get them within range; each hunter struck with his tennis ball was counted gored to death; if, on the other hand, the deer was hit by three of their balls he was killed." (ENABLE)

 

[qwazse]

I thought I'd drop a quick anecdote about signing off for Life Rank #6. There are a number of quiescent threads on this topic. I'm resurrecting this one in particular because it was spawned by our beloved OGE (R.I.P.).

SM and I were chatting about the super-cool US contingent World Jambo neckers (the largest I've ever seen from BSA) when along comes a Star scout asking to sign off a couple of remaining requirements. This scout is more action than words. We weren't sure he'd stick around, but he did and is a genuine quality youth.

He said, "I taught so many kids this stuff, do I have to do one in particular?"

We asked him if they learned what he taught them, he said they did.

I asked if he used the EDGE method, did he even know what it stood for? He gave me that "really-do-I-have-to?" look.

I then asked the outgoing SM (who had actually consumed a troop meeting to teach EDGE) if he could tell the scout what the method was. The guy tripped over the first letter. "Uh, Engourage?"

I concluded. "Seems like you know it as well as Mr. Old SM. Get your signature from him and ask Mr. New SM for your conference. Oh, and keep teaching our scouts as well as you've already been doing."

[mrkstvns]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

SM and I were chatting about the super-cool US contingent World Jambo neckers (the largest I've ever seen from BSA) ...

I wonder what the advantages might be of having really large neckers.

[DuctTape]

1 hour ago, mrkstvns said:

I wonder what the advantages might be of having really large neckers.

They would be useful instead of solely adornment.

[qwazse]

2 hours ago, mrkstvns said:

I wonder what the advantages might be of having really large neckers.

There are plenty of references that expound on the uses of cloth the size and shape of triangular bandages.

28 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

They would be useful instead of solely adornment.

Adornment? Sure ... the thing is swank.

Importantly, we don't want our international visitors to think "cheap" when our scouts give one as a token of friendship.

Useful? Maybe ... especially with the reinforced sides of this bad boy ...

Check it out here.

Now, that's an edge method that I can support (on my shoulders )!

Edited June 4, 2019 by qwazse

[mds3d]

Holy Zombie Thread, Batman!

I love having a full size (square) necker.   Anything else and I would rather go without.  

I cant find the original parent thread, anyone want to summarize why EDGE was so bad?

 

[qwazse]

8 minutes ago, mds3d said:

Holy Zombie Thread, Batman!

I love having a full size (square) necker.   Anything else and I would rather go without.  

I cant find the original parent thread, anyone want to summarize why EDGE was so bad?

Rather than explain, let me give you a reference:

 

[mds3d]

10 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Rather than explain, let me give you a reference:

 

Thanks,  it helps to have context.  Seems like the problem was less about it being a bad method  and more about it being the one prescribed method.  I have no problem with the BSA focusing on a singular method of skill teaching since you could spend a masters degree worth of time discussing all of the methods and when they are most useful.  I do a lot of skill teaching at work and teaching others to teach skills.  I  essentially teach the EDGE method because it is more easily applicable than "see one, do one, teach one." That is what we were taught in school but there is often no one else to teach and teach back is awkward and stupid when it isn't and exercise. 

[qwazse]

6 hours ago, mds3d said:

Thanks,  it helps to have context.  Seems like the problem was less about it being a bad method  and more about it being the one prescribed method.  I have no problem with the BSA focusing on a singular method of skill teaching since you could spend a masters degree worth of time discussing all of the methods and when they are most useful.  I do a lot of skill teaching at work and teaching others to teach skills.  I  essentially teach the EDGE method because it is more easily applicable than "see one, do one, teach one." That is what we were taught in school but there is often no one else to teach and teach back is awkward and stupid when it isn't and exercise. 

The problem was not about it being a bad method. It was about it being a nonessential, unproven method. Don't know CPR? Someone may die unnecessarily. Don't know EDGE? Someone may have to learn something by reading a book, or as you describe, by teaching it back to a teacher, or by dozens of different rubrics that a first class scout may deploy. It's not clear that any of those are worse.

Oh, I got all worked up and forgot that there is more to my anecdote. So, at meetings, I'm loaning out my Jambo neckerchiefs to break them in so they they get a well-traveled look. One of the scouts who got my necker grabbed his phone, looked up the friendship knot, and started to work on tying it. Since he took the trouble to add reference to his teaching method, I supplemented by giving him a quick demonstration.

[ItsBrian]

Honestly, I basically use EDGE when instructing at the first year program. I average 14 kids, up to 21. I can’t be with every single one of them especially if I don’t have any adult volunteers.

For example, when I teach beginner knots:

Explain: I keep them gathered around and I explain what it’s used for and why you use it.

Demonstrate: They don’t even touch their ropes yet and I make sure they pay attention on how I do it. I say step by step when I do it and offer some tips to make it easier.

Guide: Now they try. I have them spread around to trees, their walking sticks, or to find a stick. They get less distracted and can focus more if spread out. I make sure each of them do it correctly at least twice and offer any advice if needed.

Enable: We go through all of the knots we have learned (Mostly the beginner knots) and we have a knot tying competition to see who can tie the knots, which they say is always fun! 

I am looking at other posts about using the handbook or having them teach someone else, which unfortunately wouldn’t work in a summer camp setting due to time constraints and most not even having their book.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by ItsBrian

[mrkstvns]

There's nothing wrong with EDGE ... quite the contrary, as a tool that enables youth to teach each other practical skills, it's quite useful, and I have yet to hear a naysayer suggest something that is as practical, effective, and useful.

Of course, EDGE has its limitations. It really works only for skills, not so much for concepts. If you're teaching knowledge, you'll have to use other strategies, but those aren't really relevant to kids who want to show each other HOW to do something.

[perdidochas]

20 hours ago, mds3d said:

Holy Zombie Thread, Batman!

I love having a full size (square) necker.   Anything else and I would rather go without.  

I cant find the original parent thread, anyone want to summarize why EDGE was so bad?

 

There is nothing wrong with EDGE.  It's a basic formula for instruction in physical skills--Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable.  It's basically what good instructors do for physical skills. First you tell how to do it, then you show how to do it (can combine the two steps), then guide them to actually doing it, and finally give them opportunities to do it.  Is it the only way to instruct in physical skills? Of course not, but it's a pretty good basic method.  The real problem is that in most troops, we don't do the second E well enough.  

Edited June 5, 2019 by perdidochas

[qwazse]

It's a pretty basic good method, but you can combine Explain and Demonstrate? Doesn't that mean a step is superfluous? If so, that implies there exists a method that is more basic and as good if not better.

No wonder our old SM forgot what the first E stood for.

I like how @ItsBrian recognized that his first-year depended on a four step method because of time constraints and scouts not bringing their handbook. But, when the scout leaves the trail-to-first-class area and forgets a skill and his buddy can't remember either, how is he going to refresh his memory? Suppose @ItsBrian explained, guided, demonstrated, and enabled wrongly. (We all have off days.) How is the scout going to correct or refine what he learned?

I'm looking forward to finding out how our Swedish buddy troop teaches skills. Maybe they have to learn English first so they won't forget their EDGE.

[mrkstvns]

3 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I'm looking forward to finding out how our Swedish buddy troop teaches skills. Maybe they have to learn English first so they won't forget their EDGE.

Nah. They just use the easy-to-remember FDVG method instead....

Förklara, Demonstrera, vägleda, Gör det möjligt

 

[ItsBrian]

40 minutes ago, qwazse said:

It's a pretty basic good method, but you can combine Explain and Demonstrate? Doesn't that mean a step is superfluous? If so, that implies there exists a method that is more basic and as good if not better.

No wonder our old SM forgot what the first E stood for.

I like how @ItsBrian recognized that his first-year depended on a four step method because of time constraints and scouts not bringing their handbook. But, when the scout leaves the trail-to-first-class area and forgets a skill and his buddy can't remember either, how is he going to refresh his memory? Suppose @ItsBrian explained, guided, demonstrated, and enabled wrongly. (We all have off days.) How is the scout going to correct or refine what he learned?

I'm looking forward to finding out how our Swedish buddy troop teaches skills. Maybe they have to learn English first so they won't forget their EDGE.

I forgot to mention we try to have them practice more later and then demonstrate it to their leaders before they get the requirement signed off by their leader.

If they actually do that, I’m not sure. But, on Friday’s since we aren’t so time constrained I usually like to kill time reviewing mostly everything we have done.

Friday is orienteering, and we just do the basic requirements of it. There is a big open field connecting most program areas that we do a orienteering course in. After they get everything right and head to the correction location, we stop and review a skill from earlier in the week. Some scouts remember certain skills more than others, and I try to get them to ask their buddies for help before coming to me. I guess you could call this enabling?