The male mystic

[Stosh]

I thought about this topic now for some time and as everyone on the forum knows I've been around for awhile so I'm not really a troll per se. But since I was removed as a SM for expecting too much leadership in a boy-led, patrol-method program I've had a lot of time to read.

 

I am presently reading a book titled WILD AT HEART. It's a Christian based book but applies to any religion.

 

The premise states that males in this world are hard-wired differently than women and as anyone would tend to agree that men are from Mars and women are from Venus, it kind of holds true.

 

But then what is that hard-wiring and how does it apply to Scouting?

 

For 4,000 years of recordable history we can see patterns that have applied and when compared to today's society in the 21st Century in our culture of America there seems to be a disconnect, or at least an attempt to disconnect that hard-wiring. So with an attempt to not unduly judge the issue, I would like the forum's thought on the subject.

 

Males basically have three distinct hard-wires that need to be formed for stability of the male mystic, i.e. what makes a man a man.

 

1) Man is a hunter, gatherer, warrior. This is not unique to the human species, but does apply. The man has historically been put in this role. From an early age, before societal and cultural dynamics are applied to cover this up, one can see small boys fulfilling these natural, hard-wired dynamics. Give them a stick and it immediately becomes a "weapon". Cops and robbers, cowboy and Indians, toy soldiers, etc. all reinforce this natural tendency. We have discussed on this on the forum at great length. Give the kid a walking stick and it immediately becomes, well, you know, a sword or a lance, etc. Rocks? They are not to decorate gardens, they are projectiles, plain and simple. Our society does everything within it's power to curtail this natural tendency and thus emasculate our boys. He is satisfied only if he knows he is powerful enough to meet the challenges that face him in the world. How will he react if a bully confronts him if he's never learned how to fight? Can he fulfill his role as a man when challenged?

 

2) Man is not a home-body, he needs adventure. World conquerors, explorers, any one who ventures out into the unknown with a bit of trepidation and fear becomes excited about what's just around the corner! To a small boy, what's down the block beyond what he can see from his yard is a chance to explore and conquer. Heroic adventures are not HERE, but out THERE somewhere else. The natural tendency for males to to venture forth looking for the unknown, even if it is only unknown to him. It involves fear of the unknown and a chance to conquer that fear.

 

3) Man needs a woman to claim and protect for his own. Every Romeo needs a Juliet, behind every great man is a woman, etc. Man is not satisfied as a lone wolf, he must have a reason to fight, explore and protect. That role is provided by the female of the species. If he can't fight how can he protect a woman? What if he hasn't fulfilled the adventure of seeking the right mate?

 

Assuming that there is any truth to these three hard-wires in our boys, how many of them do we emasculate from our boys? I have often used the story of the young boy that is climbing his first tree. An adventure, a challenge to overcome an inner fear. Mom stands at the base of the tree and calls out, "Be careful!" and dad standing next to her calls out, "How high can you go?!"

 

When a boy turns 16 he dreams about his first car. A Chevelle SS with a high performance 460 c.i. engine with racing slicks on the jacked up back. Dad says, I had a Harley when I was your age, and mom is going nuts! When the dust settles the boy gets a used Volvo because it's the safest car on the road. When momma ain't happy, nobody's happy. And another step is taken to emasculate the boy struggling for manhood.

 

Aggressive boys are drugged down with Ritalin, told to sit quiet and be like the girls or they will grow up to be aggressive, adventurous, and ... dangerous! Maybe a bit too wild! They might take on bigger than life attributes like heroism or something dangerous.

 

Is our modern definition of a "nice guy" really manhood or some contrived definition that runs counter to the hard-wiring of the male mystic?

 

Your thoughts?

 

Stosh

[packsaddle]

Vicki, where are you when we need you?

 

The "hard-wiring" is a fact that cannot be denied, if for no other reason than the different reproductive roles. In terms of mores or inclinations, I am willing to entertain the possibility of innate male/female differences but I don't necessarily agree with the descriptions that you just gave.

 

OK, I see a dichotomy in those descriptions. There seems to be a need to distinguish between the 'Rebel without a cause' at first and then 'nice guys'.

Or perhaps the question is, can that rebel also be a nice guy? When I think of 'nice guys' I think of the character, Atticus Finch, or in real life, someone like Abraham Lincoln or Thomas Jefferson. And I admit that viewed from such a distance in time, those real persons may be almost as mythical as Finch.

Considering what all those characters did, I'm thinking that the difference is between an outlook that embraces fairness and does not engage in self-destructive risk-taking for its own sake and an outlook which is willing to overlook ethical limits and enjoys the thrill of beating the odds for risk-taking.

 

I could take issue with the second one by simple observation of males in this society...at any age. Given the option of heading out to the wilderness to do whatever and staying on the couch, drinking beer, eating chips and dip, and watching football, I think I'm on safe ground thinking that most males opt for food, comfort, and mindless entertainment.

 

The third one...c'mon. We're pigs. We don't want a woman. We want lots of them. We don't really want anything else until the testosterone levels decline to the point that rational thought has a chance. Often by then it's too late. It's women who whip us into submission and preserve us until we're actually worth something. And I appreciate it.

Women ARE in control. And I'm sorry to see males self-deluded into thinking otherwise.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[skeptic]

Just curious; isn't the male "mystic" the guy on the top of the mountain?

[SeattlePioneer]

What's up with all the man-boys?

 

 

http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/2011/02/21/whats-up-with-all-the-man-boys-wsj/comment-page-1/#comment-469

[perdidochas]

I think that most households with active fathers present are not emasculating boys. The problem is that we have too many households with either no father present or with an inactive father present.

 

Of the three hard-wires, I don't think we deny 1. Video games, as well as just normal child play even now, still encourage that part. Most boys are not playing videogames in which they tend gardens. They are being warriors of some type. I do think we tend to ignore and stunt #2 and #3.

 

I also disagree that ritalin is used to stop aggression. I think we use it to make boys be able to sit still for way too long. Boys need movement for sanity. My oldest son enjoys middle school much more than elementary. Why? Well, partly because he knows that the longest he is going to have to sit still is 50 minutes. At that time, he can go to another class. In elementary he wasn't moving as much.

 

(also, there is no need to give a boy a stick, boys naturally pick up sticks--it drives most women crazy. Most men aren't bothered, but it's because we are busy scoping out sticks for our own use).

[Stosh]

Okay okay! LOL Mystique

 

But seriously, are the couch potatoes what we make of males or is it that they have given up on their dreams? Every little boy has dreams of great things, heroic things, honorable things and yet after due process of culture end up sitting on the couch watching football while the wife is abandoned and lonely 2 rooms away? I know of no little boy that wants to grow up to be divorced. They want to be a soldier, a president, a policeman, etc. Heroic and honorable dreams. He needs to be powerful to do those things. He has to know he can do those things or he won't have the heart to take it to the heroic level. Women? Any little boys you know want to grow up and marry a woman that doesn't need him? Yeah right.

 

I'm just trying to figure out what happens to the great dreams and plans of little boys and what we do to them by the time they reach adulthood. And why so many of them don't develop and end up boy-men.

 

Scouting has access to these boys from K-college and so we could have an impact, but do we?

 

It's kinda like while we debate the pros and cons of laser tag, the boys are off isolated in their bedrooms playing some of the most violent war games some adult can think up. Basically is this how they are realizing their dreams? We expect boys to take on challenges and yet forbid them access to self-defense martial arts training. We teach them to tattle on bullies rather than fix it themselves. Okay... my boy is on the playground and is confronted by the class bully. He gets pushed down, and bounces back up and hauls off and lands a big one on the bully. Who's the hero? A Scout is Brave. If nothing else, any bully will think twice before picking a fight with someone who is a bit dangerous. Yes a Scout Courteous, Kind, Obedient when needed, but is he ever Brave when needed? Don't need to be brave is you're home sitting on the couch watching TV bemoaning the fact that you're wife just ran off with the washing machine repairman.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

 

 

[packsaddle]

"But seriously, are the couch potatoes what we make of males or is it that they have given up on their dreams? Every little boy has dreams of great things, heroic things, honorable things and yet after due process of culture end up sitting on the couch watching football while the wife is abandoned and lonely 2 rooms away?"

 

Dreams are just dreams if that's as far as someone decides to take it. Some of us don't give up and keep going for it. We don't make CP's out of boys, they do that to themselves. Great things don't have to be 'big' things. Honor isn't limited to things that lead to recognition by others and heroism can happen anytime, just not necessarily noticed by anyone else. Dreams are available to anyone at any age. But they are just dreams unless people take the initiative and pursue them. Most of the CP's I know are there on the couch by choice.

And most CP wives I know understood what was in store for them. Time to live with the consequences of the mistake.

[Stosh]

So then what is Scouting doing to promote, incite and encourage those dreams of young boys? One can't just say the world is going to discourage them so why bother trying? Is it thus the common consensus the American Dream might be over and we've all awakened to despair? If parents are doing everything for them, why dream? Thus we have long discussions on helicopter parents. What happens when one day each of these boys awakens to the world of adulthood and they aren't ready? That'll take a lot of wind out of one's sail.

 

At what point in one's life does one give up on dreams? Heck, at 60 I still have dreams out there, it may rapidly turning into a bucket list, but they're still there. It's easier at a young age to help the boys with their dreams than it is to take an old dog like me and try to revive them. If I can still keep the dream alive at 60, why can't we keep it alive for 10 and 11 year olds? I have a few mentor pins stuck on my jac-shirt that remind me that dreams are still possible.

 

What is going on that is working against those dynamics that we as Scouters can reverse and help these kids out? There are a lot more geldings in the world than there are stallions because geldings are a lot easier and a lot safer alternative to trying to risk breaking a stallion. How much discouragement do we dish out and create couch potatoes and let them believe that the outcome they have chosen is still okay because it doesn't bother the neighbors? There's a lot to be said about having the strongest natural leaders in one's troop that are also the hardest to control.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[MattR]

This may be somewhat related but I just did a scoutmaster minute on excellence. Excellence is setting your own bar and reaching for it. Mundane is having someone else set the bar for you. School is mundane. Even if you get straight A's you can be mundane because you might not have had to push yourself, it's just the teacher telling you what to do to get an A, over and over and over.

 

Competition requires excellence. You have to dig it up from the inside. Boys like to compete. Boys also like to be a part of something bigger than themselves. Having your team win the superbowl is something special. So are gangs, to boys that have nothing else.

 

Excellence can also come from things other than competition. An Eagle project usually requires a scout to stretch himself a lot and set his own bar. Real leadership also encourages excellence. A leader decides where the bar is.

 

Mundane is easier than excellence. Boys want the easy path. But I have a hunch excellence is what boys need. So, to get a little closer to your question, I think boys need more opportunity for excellence, whether it be competition or leadership or just being the best at something I'm not sure it matters. Boy Scouts can easily fill that need but it's too easy for adults to make it look no different than having a teacher tell you what to do when.

 

I'm trying something new in my troop. I asked for scouts that want to be excellent and told them they will meet, find something they want to lead for the troop, and be excellent about it. I'll teach them leadership skills that they'll use on their projects and I expect them to bring a positive attitude and make the time needed to do a good job. It's kind of a cross between NYLT, a woodbadge ticket, EDGE, and a team effort. I have half a dozen scouts signed up. We'll see how it goes.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Let me tell you something,there is very little male about Mystique (AKA Raven Darkhlme)

[Stosh]

MattR, you're on the right track, you may not be promoting dreams and excellence of something better down the road for these boys, but you are at least creating the opportunity for those dreams. That's the first step in the right direction. In the average troop meeting how many times do we say yes and how many times do we say no.

 

Don't play in the fire.

Don't be waving that stick around.

 

Safety you say? What great adventure out there doesn't have some sort of risk involved?

 

What fireman does his job every day with the possibility he won't be going home at the end of his shift?

What policeman does his job every day with the possibility he ....

What soldier does his job every day with the possibility.....

What astronaut does his job ever day with the possibility...

 

We call these people heroes, but we don't ever want our boys to be heroes and deep inside of them they all long to be such....

 

No you can't have that dream, you can't reach for excellence, you can't be a hero.....

 

If you don't know how to plan a trip, find your way on a map, find food/restaurants along the way, budget the costs, secure a safe place to spend the night... you will never be a hero to your 6 year old son who wants to go to Disney World.

 

Every son/daughter wants their father to be a man, a warrior, a protector, a man that will open the door to adventure and promote their dreams along the way.

 

The opportunity to do any and all of this is designed into Scouting and yet we don't deliver on the promise. (?)

 

OGE, you just gotta give up those Marvel comic books! LOL

 

Definition of MYSTIQUE

1

: an air or attitude of mystery and reverence developing around something or someone

2

: the special esoteric skill essential in a calling or activity

See mystique defined for English-language learners

Examples of MYSTIQUE

 

1. There's a certain mystique to people who fight fires.

2. No one has been able to copy the legendary singer's mystique.

3. the mystique of mountain climbing

 

Origin of MYSTIQUE

French, from mystique, adjective, mystic, from Latin mysticus

First Known Use: 1891

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[OldGreyEagle]

Sorry about the X-Men thing, I had to

 

so , to the original post

 

"When a boy turns 16 he dreams about his first car. A Chevelle SS with a high performance 460 c.i. engine with racing slicks on the jacked up back. Dad says, I had a Harley when I was your age, and mom is going nuts! When the dust settles the boy gets a used Volvo because it's the safest car on the road. When momma ain't happy, nobody's happy. And another step is taken to emasculate the boy struggling for manhood."

 

Sounds like Dad is the emasculated one and if he allowed himself, thats on him. My first car was one I could afford to gas, insure, maintain and otherwise equip. If a 16 year old can afford the car you speak of, let him have it. And to the boy disdaineful of a used Volvo, its better than a Schwinn (not that there is anyhting wrong with a Schwinn mind you)

 

 

 

"2) Man is not a home-body, he needs adventure. World conquerors, explorers, any one who ventures out into the unknown with a bit of trepidation and fear becomes excited about what's just around the corner! To a small boy, what's down the block beyond what he can see from his yard is a chance to explore and conquer. Heroic adventures are not HERE, but out THERE somewhere else. The natural tendency for males to to venture forth looking for the unknown, even if it is only unknown to him. It involves fear of the unknown and a chance to conquer that fear."

 

So what we are saying is that its ok to have a family and leave them whilst you go off and wander? That since its in a man's nature to wander for adventure its ok to abandon those who depend on you in the name of adventure. In this case Travis Henry is a role model?

 

The bullying thing is a whole nother deal, I stood up to a bully once, got a beat down for my troubles, all the while being told if I had just taken it, I would home, instead I was bloodied.

 

And oh yeah, the bullying didnt stop

 

 

[Stosh]

OGE, yeah, I thought it was a good comeback.

 

As far as the car analogy, I used the extremes for emphasis. When a boy dreams he dreams in excess but normally will come back to a little reality when faced with the financial concerns of buying and maintaining a high performance car. Heck, I didn't get my first car until I was out of school and working and could afford it. Didn't quit dreaming though, I now have my 74 Nova with Crager S/S mags on it. It doesn't have the 460 ci bored out engine, just a six cylinder that gets 24 mpg so I can at least drive it.

 

One also has to keep in mind that all the hard-wiring needs to balance. If the man goes off and seeks adventure abandoning his responsibility of protecting his wife and kids, he's not a man at all. Got a ton of "boy-men" out there that fall into that category.

 

1) Powerful, protector, warrior - needs a purpose See #3

2) Adventure - not just for himself, but his family, too. (Trip to Disney World, etc.)

3) Woman - the reason for being a man in the first place and the glue that holds together the other two.

 

I think that without the balance of the three one ends up with the man-boy that was referenced earlier.

 

As far as bullies are concerned, one does not need to win the battle to be the hero, i.e. BRAVEHEART, SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, THEY DIED WITH THEIR BOOTS ON, etc. We wouldn't be much of a hero-warrior if we only fought the battles we knew we could win.

 

Yet like MattR points out, are we settling for second best and not at least having the boys strive for excellence?

 

The parents in my former troop were concerned that the boys were taking on too much responsibility/leadership. They stripped the excellence out of the program and took over the leadership, not from me (SM) but from the boys too!

 

Buddy system - marriage

Patrol method - family

Organizing a trip to Philmont - Family vacation

Service projects - community involvement on behalf of others

 

What scouting is designed to do is help the boy become an effective man. When he ages out at 18 he should "Be Prepared" for the world which now faces him? Is he 1) strong and powerful, knowing that he at least has an even chance in "battle". 2) Is he confident that the adventures out there, the unknown, the unexplored world of his existence is something to look forward to or to fear? 3) is there a reason for all this? Marriage, family, friends, community.... Is there someone out there that I have a reason to protect, tend to, share life with that will have my back in this whole process?

 

If parents, adult leaders, etc. strip these features out of Scouting, what does one have to offer?

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

 

[Twocubdad]

This is a pretty deep topic and I will admit it probably deserves more thought, so this is a bit rambling.

 

My first reaction is that there are all sorts of hard-wired urges which civil society requires us to resist. Just because it's instinctive to the species doesn't mean we need to let boys beat the crap out of each other with sticks. Do we really want our sons and daughters pairing up and breeding at age 13 or 14 because they are hard-wired to do so?

 

Most of that hard wiring developed over millions of years, whereas the requirements of civilized society have been around a few thousand, and modern civilization a few hundred years. There are bound to be conflicts, even, as packsaddle points out, conflicts between competing hard-wired urges.

 

It also seems that hard-wiring changes with age. A 16-year-old may be hard-wired for adventure, challenge and conquest, but as we get older perhaps the instincts mature too, causing us to focus on families, homes and communties.

 

Maybe one of the conflicts is our desire to see those adventurous, conquering 16 year old to live long enough to experience that more mature hard wiring. In more historic or pre-historic times humanity was more accepting of the idea that many young men wouldn't survive their adventures. We used to live much more closely with death and of course many parts of the world still do. If a third of your children didn't survive infancy and your first two wives died in childbirth, your 16-year-old son being killed on a hunt or being lost at sea may have seemed like a more noble fate.

 

We have arranged our lives and societies so that activities which were once required for survival are now recreational. Being killed by a saber-toothed tiger while trying to feed your family is much different from getting shot by a drunk out hunting deer. Dying on the wagon trail leading your family to a better life is more worthwhile than dying trying to earn a Scout badge.

 

Maybe risk assesment is one of those instincts which develop with age?

[MattR]

Now that I think about it, blaming the women for all the men's problems is not a very manly thing to do

 

But, since I'm a Scoutmaster and motivating boys is my main job, this is a good subject. That and the most frustrating thing I ever see is a group of 15 year olds that are capable of doing amazing things, sitting around like a beached whale. So I certainly don't have the answers. But I try.

 

Boy Scouts is interested in developing well rounded young men. In my view there are two parts to that. The first is being selfless and is basically described in the Scout Oath and Law. The second, for lack of a better name, is what I call spirit. Look at the previous posts and words like adventure, conquest, competition, dreams, and excellence are used. Think of those words and what's the first image that comes to mind? It isn't homework. I'm a firm believer in homework but I'm also a firm believer in what a good adventure can teach you. Society pushes homework but not adventure. I think, on average, this hurts boys more than girls. Girls want and learn from adventure, too, but they don't typically seem to need it like boys.

 

With all that said it still seems to take time to get boys into the spirit. They have to learn to get out of their comfort zone. When they join a troop at 11 they want fun. It's only when they get older that they need adventure and challenge but they also need encouragement, and I don't think they're getting that outside of scouts, and maybe not enough within scouts. I have beached whale kids and it's easier to be lazy than spend a week backpacking. So, we have most of it figured out.