Lying

[Eagle732]

I thought maybe we could discuss how we deal with lying what we can do to help Scouts live up to the Scout Law, you Trustworthy and all that. I should know better.

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

[OwntheNight]

I think the first thing you do is, "If you're going to talk the talk, you had better be walking the walk"

 

I try and be as open and honest with my boys as I can without being condescending or ugly about it. Sometimes, you may not like the answer you get from me, but you'll get the truth. Kids know when they're being lied to, they also know how to be brutally honest too. Sometimes too much so.

 

I have a hard time being a smart aleck with the boys in the troop, with the exception of a few boys who I've spent the last three years with from Webelos. They get my sense of humor, but they also understand that if they come to me with a serious question, they will get an honest answer and if I don't know the answer, we'll go find somebody who does.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Ok, let's talk about the consequences of lying, then.

 

the consequences are far less than if I find out about it through others.

 

What are the consequences for lying? There are lots of different scenarios where lying might occur. Here's one I had. A Scout has mildly injured himself by doing something stupid. When he explains it, he substitutes a plausible alternate explanation that doesn't involve quite the level of stupidity. Later on the adults learn the truth from other Scouts and when confronted, the Scout does in fact admit that he did something pretty stupid.

[evmori]

Have you informed the unit this boy transferred to what transpired? Have you informed your DAC as well? If not, I would do this ASAP.

 

This kid an Eagle, I think not.

[Eagle732]

Yep, that was all done immediately. No one cared.

Sad thing is I had a Life Scout with 21 MBs and a project scheduled that totally lost interest during this fiasco. When I asked why he told me he didn't think Eagle was worth much. This Scout is in the military today and doing very well and I'm very proud of him.

[RememberSchiff]

what we can do to help Scouts live up to the Scout Law, you Trustworthy and all that

 

I emphasize that a man's word is his bond, that if I cannot trust you then I will be following you around all the time and it is easier for me to shadow if you are staying behind doing clean-up (the chicken-s-list jobs like tarp pole polishing, arranging water buckets,...) while the rest are off having fun (the "carrots"). I firmly believe the "stick approach" should be used with the "consequences". You're being mean...yeah the water buckets need to form an arrow pointing north, I want the water magnetized. I may remind the scout that magnetized water must be demagnetized by boiling otherwise pasta will stick to the metal pot. Yeah I'm mean.

 

Okay he seems to get the message but more likely he is playing me, so now WE go back to his patrol where the message is Johnny needs some help becoming a scout or he will need help arranging water buckets. Peer pressure can be a good thing.

 

The Scout Law starts "A Scout IS...." well scouts don't start that way if they did we would have no job to do. Over time scouts BECOME Trustworthy, Loyal...and if you are very lucky Clean. Our goal is to develop a First Class Scout who can say I AM trustworthy, loyal ...I am a scout.

 

Today, there is often little support for old school discipline measures (can't you just talk to him again, you know that scoutmaster conference thingy or give him a merit badge..) and a boy can transfer to F-troop and get his double E (express Eagle). I envy the discipline measures that high school coaches have ...run laps, situps, benched, suspended,..

 

My $0.01, time for a coffee break. Sometimes a break is good.

 

P.S. Good to hear about your Life Scout, he IS a scout. That other probably not.

 

 

(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

[Eagle732]

True, Scouts don't start off trustworthy, hopefully the program works and we do our jobs as adult leaders and they grow into living the Ideals of Scouting.

 

But what do you do when things go the other way? Instead of becoming a good Scout they learn to manipulate the system to get what they want? And then the system rewards their behavior by granting them what they want more than anything else, even more than their own honor and dignity?

 

The ramifications run deep. Not only is this detrimental to the Scout in the long run but it hurts others around him. The Scouts see this someone who got away with it, as this young man has bragged about.

 

My leaders see the hypocrisy of it all. Why bother with helping a program that has no standards? And if I was not so committed to the program I would just throw in the towel too.

 

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

I wish I had an answer as it wears on me too. Shake it off and help the boys who want to be real First Class scouts. Those that don't, maybe put an "This way to F-troop" at the exit door.

 

It's a damn shame there is no top-down quality control in the Scout program. There used to be, back in the day of Neighborhood Commissioners, not these powerless District Commissioners of today. And if raising program quality lowered membership, so be it.

 

Find satisfaction in the small victories. Sorry, I know that does not help much.

 

Another $0.01

[Eagle732]

Actually it does help, thank you.

 

I too remember the days of the Neighborhood Commissioner, a gentleman who we, as Scouts knew and respected. I also remember that my parents would have never cleared the path to Eagle for me, they allowed me to do it myself. Even though in those days it wasn't a "Leadership" project but just a service project and not near the hours needed today.

 

I think it all goes back to the the way kids are raised today. Now days parents defend their kids no matter what they do. I've had parents take their kids out of our troop because the Scout didn't get signed off on a requirement when they thought he should. Didn't matter they didn't know the skill.

[CalicoPenn]

Eagle,

 

It wasn't my intention to put you on the defensive.

 

 

Schiff,

 

I'm going to vehemently disagree with the following:

 

"The Scout Law starts "A Scout IS...." well scouts don't start that way if they did we would have no job to do. Over time scouts BECOME Trustworthy, Loyal...and if you are very lucky Clean. Our goal is to develop a First Class Scout who can say I AM trustworthy, loyal ...I am a scout."

 

Nope - Scouts don't become Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, etc. as they go on. They already are - the moment they become Scouts. The moment they become Scouts, we should act as if they already are Trustworthy, Loyal, etc. The Scout Law doesn't start out with "A First Class and Above Scout is Trustworthy". It starts out with "A Scout is" - and that refers to all Scouts. They may not know what those things mean when they become Scouts, but they already are those things.

 

[Eagle732]

Calico,

I think it's a learning process. They don't come to us knowing the Scout Law, we teach them. They might have a basic understanding of right and wrong, and I underscore "Might". Some boys come to us with lots of baggage, broken homes, abusive parents, low income, etc. We can only work with what we are presented with in a boy and hopefully improve from there.

 

This thread was not suppose to be about my example, that was put out there to start the discussion on how do deal with lying.

 

I'd still like to discuss lying in general. Sometimes it's the simple things like a Scout signing up for a camping trip and then canceling at the last minute using a bogus reason. Sometimes its a more serious lie. I have heard from other SMs in my area with boys who have plagiarized Eagle projects and falsifying blue cards for MBs. How do we deal with this type of lying, especially without the support of our District, Council and BSA? Turn one of these boys down for Eagle and it will eventually be overturned no matter what the facts.

[Venividi]

Wow! Its not often that I disagree with something from Calico.

But I am going to vehemently disagree with "They already are [trustworthy] - the moment they become Scouts."

 

I say that the moment that they become scouts they have an ideal to live up to. It is not likely that they live up to it. We should have the expectation that scouts live up to the ideal, communicate that expectation to them, and show sorrow and disappointment when they don't. It is within human nature to attempt to lie to avoid getting in trouble or to further self interest. It is our goal as scouing mentors to help them make those ideals become part of their lives.

 

Note: I do agree with his statement that we should act as if they are. That is part of communicating expectations.

[acco40]

Our expectations should be that a Scout is ... even when we know full well that they are not. Our expectation should not be that the boys are given a grace period until 1st Class (or Eagle or whatever) until they need to become trustworthy, etc.

 

Reminds me of a few Scoutmaster Conferences that I've had for Tenderfoot and 2nd Class when the Scouts assure me that they are 'reverent' but when I ask them exactly what that means they really don't have a clue. They just know that is an expectation and they aim to please! (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Eagle732]

I'm not sure I agree with giving them a pass until FIrst Class. I think progressive discipline would be more effective. An example would be a Tenderfoot caught fibbing gets to have a discussion from the SM on being trustworthy, a Second Class Scout maybe gets to stand in front of the troop and hold a discussion with his peers on trustworthiness, a First Class Scout maybe gets to stand before the PLC and discuss why he was not trustworthy, etc. An Eagle before his EBOR might be asked to come back in 6 months with evidence that he understands what he did wrong and proof that he has done what he can to correct the situation before being awarded Eagle. Of course the SM would need to weigh the seriousness of each infraction and balance the discipline.

[Basementdweller]

If your definition of lying is holding back the truth.....then no body is truthful.

 

 

"Honey do these pants/dress/top make me look Fat?" we have all heard this one. how did you answer "Honey it isn't the pants". I don't think so. So are you lying? How is it different from, "did you steal that Ipod?" Both are told to keep you out of trouble, both are told for personal gain, both are told to protect yourself from hurt and conflict. Don't know. just posing the question.

 

 

Or how about the campout that the boys had a rough time on? Are you gonna tell the parents their son is a lazy, no good, such and such? or are you gonna say that the campout was good and it was a learning experience.

 

 

How many leaders have you run into that claim to have been to Philmont, Northern Tier, or sea base and have no direct knowledge of the process or campsites? A bunch. How many adult leaders have you met that claim to be eagles and from their personal skills, zero camping or activity planning skills and attitude clearly are not.

 

 

Now you have a batch of gay atheist kids who lie for 6 years or so to get eagle then wave it in BSA's face saying look I am gay and don't believe in god and I still attained this rank?

 

I think BSA needs to start removing a few of them, yep, a kid pulls that stunt, should receive a legal notification that they are no longer an eagle scout and cannot call themselves such for violating the oath and law of scouting. It is a stunt done with malicious intent.