Lying

[Eagle732]

In the other thread we were discussing a great big old whopper of a lie. Have you ever had a Scout or leader lie or keep the truth from you? How do you handle it?

 

My own policy with Scouts is that if you screw up (and they all do sooner or later) and you come to me and are honest about it then the consequences are far less than if I find out about it through others. I expect that the Scout who screws up makes an honest apology and does what he can to right the wrong. How he does that is up to him. All my Scouts know how I feel and seem to be willing to go along with it.

 

However I had one scout lie repeatedly about fundraising for his Eagle project, On four occasions that I know of, he solicited funds without approval or knowledge of the SM and did not spend the money on his project. I can only assume where the money went but I know it did not go to his project. We made it clear that he would have to make amends for his actions by turning the money over to the benefiting organization and starting over on his fundraising, this time with proper approvals. He instead chose to leave the troop for a unit that didn't care and is now an Eagle even though he lied, cheated and stole money.

[Scoutfish]

Well...it's a tough call. There is no standard operating procedure for lying as each one has to be individually judged on it's own unique situation.

 

Know what I mean. I come home from work one day and my wife is wearing a new sweater and a new pair of pants she bought. Maybe even spent an hour fixing her hair and makeup. She asks me what I think.

 

Now, I'm thinking the clothes are atrocious and her makeup is way over the top ( my persoan opinion), and I don't like the way she did her hair.

 

Am I gonna tell her? Oh hell no!

 

I tell her she looks nice. And leave it at that. Telling the truth will not benefit anybody, but will result in hurt feelings. Nothing good would come of the tructh.

 

Same scenario: Your 6 year old daughter draws you a picture for your birthday. Looks like a box of crayons threw up. She asks you if you like it.

 

No doubt you tell her it's absolutely beautiful. Another lie technically, but is it really a bad thing?

 

In your case, seems like the scout took care of the "what do we do about it" part of the issue. He removed himself from your unit. Sure, the other unit may just see giving ( and I mean giving, not earning) him eagle as another tick mark on the "look how great a unit we have" scorecard.

But it's no longer your concern nor do you have a dog in that fight.

 

The only thing you could do is approach council about it , but that would only ,make you look petty and say nothing good or bad about the scout.

 

But lets lok at another facet of this issue:

 

"We made it clear that he would have to make amends for his actions by turning the money over to the benefiting organization and starting over on his fundraising,..."

 

On the top, I agree with this and support it.Money going where it was claimed to be by the youth. But technically, it's confiscating money that a youth stole (under false pretenses) and trying to make good of something bad.

 

The technically correct thing to do would be to return the money to the original donor and then see what they want to do.

 

And I say that because I myself may not just give cash to any group, but be willing to support another group that has plans for a specific benefit to the 1st organazation.

 

That make sense? I might not give cash to a neighboring unit because I know they just blow it on frivilous things, but I would give $$ to 3 or 4 scout dads who are specifically planning on buying a new aluminum PWD track and donating it to that unit.

 

In that way, I know the unit will be getting something usefull and not spending the money on things that some of our (former) leaders used to do - specifically- two ran a catering buisness, so when they did something as unit leaders, they added "catering costs" to reimbursement reciepts. They felt they shouls make money on cooking for the unit. And I am talking campouts where all leaders cooked, but these two thought they ( and only they) were due compensation because it's what they did for a living.

 

 

Anyways, like I said, each and every case has to be judged and handles on it's own unique merits.

[Nike]

It's a shame what this young man did. He lied, he stole, and when confronted, he ran. A true Eagle? Probably not. But, you did the best you could and have kept your integrity and your troop's.

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

Sorry to hear this. I have felt disappointment and even betrayal when undeserving scouts "get" Eagle by working the system.

 

I think there needs to be a big RED flag on any scout who transfers to another unit in his district within a year or so of coming to the District EBOR. Was something wrong with the unit and/or the scout? Maybe a question will be asked at the EBOR, but there will be no pause or resolution by the Eagle Board, district commissioner or DE. And on it goes.

 

Are your scouts now thinking that the path to Eagle is a less worthy path?

 

My $0.02

[packsaddle]

House: "Everybody lies"

The local n'er-do-well: "Honest Sheriff, I paid cash money for them chickens!"

 

I remain fascinated by this topic. I repeat my advice to scouts and students alike, "if you think you can 'get away' with something, you probably shouldn't do it"

And once in a while one of them makes a bad decision anyway. Last semester I was involved in a couple of academic dishonesty cases. In both cases I believe these young people were truly repentant. They tearfully admitted that they could not for the life of them remember why they did what they did. But they are going to carry a permanent official mark against them for the rest of their lives. The decision-making process that allowed them to think the potential short-term gain of a better grade on an exam was worth more than a lifetime with that mark on their record is instructive. I think that in most cases, the decision-making process is flawed in two ways.

First, it is biased in favor of the potential gain, partly because of the second aspect...

Second, in every case I know of (adults included), the person is engaged in self-deceptions to the point of delusions. They 'know' they can 'get away' with it.

When I was with the feds, there was a local clerk who had a reputation for being hard-nosed about petty-cash accounts (she had a certain Teutonic sternness that I actually found attractive but that's another topic). Anyway - suddenly and unexpectedly she vanished with (what else?) the petty cash. She was quickly apprehended out in Idaho (where else?) and in a mental state of almost total denial and disbelief that she had done something that stupid. Facing real jail time, loss of career, loss of benefits, loss of just about everything for just a few $thousand. Why? She was lonely and some jerk had convinced her that he loved her and for her to do the deed on the promise of starting fresh somewhere else. That IS delusional!

 

I now think of the 'Perry Mason' rule: men kill for money, women kill for love.

Hi Vicki!

 

When young people engage in deceptions, I shake my head and hope they're eligible for PTI. Because I know for a fact that with PTI there's a chance they can recover and have a productive, happy life. Otherwise, their path is not likely to be a good one.

And these days there seem to be SO many more opportunities to make those bad decisions.

 

But then you have to ask yourself, when we're all sitting around the campfire spinning yarns before sleep, do we cultivate the ability to lie sometimes, even if only for entertainment? What is a novel anyway? It is fiction. It is not the truth. How about practical jokes? What are those tall tales that we enjoy so much? Paul Bunyan, Santa Clause, all the myths, Satan (sorry, just can't avoid that last one).

 

To me the topic of this thread is a great one. It leads to nearly every aspect of morality and ethics and it also goes deeply into the very definition of who we are in profound ways. I look forward to this.

[Scoutfish]

I hope zi didn't sound like I accused you of doing the same thing as the ex scout turned Eagle. That wasn't my intent.

Like I said, on the surface I would do what you said to doz: Turn the money over to the intended and advertised benefactor.

 

But my overall observations about lying ( or simply put...dishonesty) are that it's a very very wide, tpic and the bounderies are not only fuzzy, but complicated by things such as lifestyle, economic class, locale and religious (or non) beliefs.

 

For example: Does it bother you to find/make/earn extra money and not claim it on taxes like you are supposed to ( assuming it's a big enough sum) ? Or do you figure that you have paid a fair share of taxes all your life, that many who work the system pay too little or none, ands that congressmen waste so much and earn WAY TO MUCH..that your little bit doesn't matter?

 

Not saying you are right or wrong because there are so many different ways to look at it from so many different and equally correcy viewpoints based on the parameters I mentioned above.

 

Maybe you find $10,000 in the woods in the middle of nowhere. Maybe it's dropped drug money. If you turn it in, nobody (connected to it) will claim it, so why not give it to a church, council or keep it and use it for good purposes..right? That would be doing something good out of bad, but is it honest if you don'tturn it in to the police who will submit it as evidence which mean that at some point down the road, it COULD become property of the state and stand a good chance of becoming a pork barrle incentive ( total waste).

 

Tough call on lying itself...but I think you did the right thing with the scout in question.

[Eagle732]

In my example of lying the Eagle candidate was expected to turn the money over to the benefiting organization because that is our District (and I assume Council) policy. We did in fact take the money from the one case we knew of at the time and turn it over. The other cases came to light after he moved on. I guess if the money came from a few donors you could return it directly but it's not practical or maybe even possible if the money was earned by, for example, a car wash.

Upon learning that he was in the process of transferring I called the new SM and advised him that the Scout was having problems with us without being specific, and that if he wanted more information I would be happy to provide it, they were not.

Is it common for Scouts to bail out of a unit instead of answering for their mistakes?

As a kid in Scouts in the 60's I would have never thought of doing something like this, times sure have changed!

[OwntheNight]

Lying.....The Gift that keeps on giving.

 

I use to lie to my parents when I was growing up, mostly about my schoolwork (or lack thereof). I even thought I had gotten away with it, until all the lies started unraveling and my house of cards came down with it. Were my parents angry with my deception, Absolutely! They were more disappointed with my actions, than they were with the lie itself.

 

Now, my son tries to lie to me about his schoolwork, or staying up late and playing video games. (Thank goodness for email and automated grade reporting systems that are online) I've told my son that he won't get in trouble for telling the truth, but he will suffer the consequences for what he did wrong. Does he still try to lie, you bet. At some point in his life he's going to realize that the lies will hurt himself more than taking responsibility for his actions. Or , as mom used to tell me....Someday, you'll have a child that was just like you growing up.

 

We can only give our boys the tools to become the best that they can be. How those boys use those tools is up to them. At some point in time, each of these boys will have to look in the mirror and decide what type of person they want to be looking at.

[moosetracker]

Definatly not a black & white area.. all sorts of shades of gray.. Lies to make people feel good. Lies that while you are truely helping others, there are alterior motives that others may not except.. Lies where you are not helping anyone but yourself..

 

People knowing they are lieing, People who can decieve themselves with their own lies and come to believe in them as they tell them..

 

Lies of all shapes and sizes..

 

Those with no fault can throw the first rock..

[Eagledad]

In the scout troop, I learned that scouts in general live down to the lowest expectation of dominating mentor, which typically is the SM. That is probably why I strongly feel the SM should be viewed with unusually high moral principles.

 

Scouts really do want to please their mentors and disappointment by the mentor is typically a life changing experience for the better. But when a few choose not to change, they instead flee. At least in my experiences. So I wasn't surprised to read the scout in this case went to a different troop. That follows the same pattern I've observed and it makes sense I guess, nobody wants to feel the constant heavy burden of disappointment when they choose not to change.

 

Barry

[CalicoPenn]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here.

 

Was his project approved before the fundraising was done? Then what further approval from the SM does he need to raise funds? It's his project - he's got to take the bull by the horns and get it done, not wait for approval of the SM each step of the way.

 

How do you "know" the money didn't go to the project? Have you seen an accounting of the funds? The lad went to a different unit and got his Eagle - was it the same project? If so, you don't really have any concrete evidence that the money didn't go to the project or the beneficiary since you never saw the final project write-up, which should have included an accounting of funds raised.

 

This lad didn't change units in a vaccuum. The parents had to have had some kind of input and involvment. If I was this lads parent, I might see your statements as false accusations against my son and decide that it's just not going to be worth the aggravation to deal with you in this case.

 

Be cautious on your accusations. Make sure you have solid proof, otherwise, it's your reputation that could be the most damaged by this.

[Beavah]

Yah, good point by Calico, eh? Never assume as bad ethics that which can be explained by lack of understanding or competence in recording.

 

Is it common for Scouts to bail out of a unit instead of answering for their mistakes?

 

In my experience, yes. Especially in da Life-to-Eagle stage when usually it's harder to work around and try to find da weakest link within the troop, because troops usually have consistent people work the Eagle process. So lads (or parents) who are used to da work-the-weakest-link approach who get stymied often go try to find a weaker-link troop. It often has exactly da flavor Eagledad describes, eh? It's always the SM who is out to get their boy, even though they've had 5 years in the troop where the SM was just fine.

 

To my mind it wouldn't be a bad thing if we required a boy to earn Eagle in the same unit in which he earned Life, except in cases where that's impossible because of a family move or failed troop. Part of being Loyal. it would help avoid cases like I've seen, where a lad claims (and forges signoffs) that he met da six-month POR and scout spirit as SPL in his old troop, only to discover that he had really only ever been APL.

 

Sorta like residency requirements for college degrees, which many schools have, eh? Yeh have to do at least all of senior year, or all of junior & senior year, or a certain number of credits to earn a degree from that school.

 

Beavah

 

Beavah

[Eagle732]

Calico,

"Was his project approved before the fundraising was done? Then what further approval from the SM does he need to raise funds?"

The project was not approved before fundraising was done. The SM, CC and COR all have to sign off on a money earning application, none did.

"How do you "know" the money didn't go to the project? Have you seen an accounting of the funds?"

His initial concept of the project stated a certain small amount of money for materials. The money raised was considerably more. Since he was no longer a member of our unit I have no way of seeing the final accounting. However I do know the head of the benefitting organization well and have had enough discussions with him to have an understanding of what went into the project.

"The parents had to have had some kind of input and involvement"

The parents were the biggest problem, I believe they pushed the scout into doing things he probably wouldn't have done otherwise. The BO head was about fed up with dad's pushing on them to sign off on the project even though the scout did not complete the entire project as outlined in the workbook.

Hope this clears things up "Devils Advocate".

This example was put out to start the discussion on lying. Now I'm defending myself? Geez!

I'm starting to wonder why I even continue to be a SM.

[Trevorum]

 

... wait a minute ... you mean ... Satan isn't real?? They LIED to me ???

 

 

[packsaddle]

Trev, as I remember...according to certain cultures, WE are the 'Great Satan'. I guess I need to reassess?