A good middle school program but lousy HS program

[moosetracker]

I am not attacking Kudu or Jblake.. I do have my doubts about TNScouterTroop, and not what he has done so far as he is hardly off the ground, but as to his attitude that the program he plans for his troop means his troop should have control over who should be members (not the boys should choose which troop they find the best match for them.) He might be best not to open his doors to the public, but to stay with just boys from his church if he fears how he can discourage the riff-raff from coming in.

 

All I am stating is they run different programs. At the time when Kudu told Jblake he was running his program wrong, because he had a troop committee and he should not, I did not see how Kudu could tell other people they are running their troops wrong by following the current BSA policies.. I did not realize it was both of them were looking to run troops built on the 1912 philosophy..

 

All I stated is if you are running a troop that is built on a different set of rules from the mainstream, you cannot tell others they are running their troops wrong for following the current set of rules.

 

Also - that bucking the system is fine, to a point. But there is a line that should not be crossed, and that is when the line where you have to moniter who will enter for fear they will get you in trouble, if they were to complain about your policies.. If you fear that, then you have something to hide, and are doing something wrong.

 

I have not heard this claim from Jblake or Kudu. In fact Jblake is trying to recruite new scouts, from what he says, and not in a "I will allow you, and you.. But not you" type of way.

 

As long as they feel comfortable welcoming in new scouts.. Their type of bucking the system is probably the ok type. Because even if they have a complaint go to council they do not fear someone from council pulling the plug. If you can feel that way you may be bucking the system, but you are running a good program.. Just different.

[Stosh]

moosetracker: "All I am stating is they run different programs. At the time when Kudu told Jblake he was running his program wrong, because he had a troop committee and he should not, I did not see how Kudu could tell other people they are running their troops wrong by following the current BSA policies.. I did not realize it was both of them were looking to run troops built on the 1912 philosophy.."

 

I missed the part where Kudu told me I was "wrong" for having a committee. Even though I like a ton of what Kudu has to say, my boys still have the final say-so in certain areas. However, in order to even exist at all as a unit, BSA requires a committee. So I have an agreement with my old CC and now my new CC. You work with the adults and keep them informed and in line with what we are doing, run interference with anything from outside that will interfere with the boys, and watch my 6.

 

So in my case my committee is a good thing. They entertain the adults while I work with the boys.

 

Functionally all registered adults are support personnel in the troop. If some boy needs help, we provide it. We don't do anything unless asked to help.

 

Our troop structure is not what is taught by BSA but our boys prefer it because it requires more leadership on the part of the boys. The PL is the highest ranking authority in the patrol and there are NO troop officers "over" them, they only support as would an adult. If one of the PL's were to be elected, selected, asked, fill-in the SPL spot, it would not be a step UP anywhere, it would be a step DOWN into a support role for the other PL's.

 

So Kudu does it his way and others do it other ways and like everyone else I pick and choose everything and give it to my boys to consider for the functionality of their troop.

 

If the boys like a lot of Kudu's ideas, we go that route. If they didn't we'd be looking a lot more like the traditional troops of today. My boys can't seem to get enough of the old ways, at least at this point in time.

 

If 99.9% of the restaurants in my town had "drive thru's" and the only place in town that had sit down, metal silverware and china plates seemed to still draw in a few loyal, historians, and that restaurant could continue to turn a profit, it will survive. Are they wrong for not updating their menu and customer service? To some, yes, it's time to get with the program and conform to the 21st. Century!

 

Oops, Yes you can clear the dirty dishes, and a warm-up splash would be nice. Now, what were we talking about? Oh, yes, dinner in a paper bag......

 

Stosh

 

[BadenP]

Moosetracker

 

While you may have a point there are a lot of very good boy scout troops out there that do not follow the current BSA troop guidelines in their programs. Kudu and Stosh at least try to stick to the original program set up by the founder, which in all honesty has really gotten watered down over time with the emphasis on management skills vs. scouting skills. Kudu is also correct, IMO, that Bill Hillcourt did an awful lot in saving the rapidly shrinking and poorly thought out boy scout program of the 1970's by rewriting it and bringing it back to the "basics". I would much rather see scouting done Kudu's way then for example the way the LDS church has twisted the program to fit the religious needs of their faith and other faiths who have done the same thing. The boy scout program was never meant to be used as an indoctrination or propaganda tool for any religion.

 

As Kudu, Beavah, and others here have pointed out time and time again the current BSA training set up for Boy Scout Leaders does not do an adequate job in preparing them to lead a troop and while management is a part of the process, having enough training to master the essential scoutcraft skills is and should be the priority. The format and content of current National training is just the opposite of that goal. The result is undertrained SM's and ASM's and dull programs that are losing more boys every year. National has to take a serious look at the current boy scout program and re-evaluate its effectiveness before it is too late.

[Eagle92]

I am going to use an old quote that is as applicable today as it was written in the 1930s. This quote should serve as the foundation of everything we do:

 

"OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING!" (caps in original.) Are leadership skills important in havign youth run a troop, absolutely. BUT even more important is taking them in the outdoors, letting them learn to be independent of adults and work together as a team with their patrol. I respectfully disagree with folks who say leadership skills and teaching techniques are not important, as I think they are VERY important. BUT using the Patrol Method and the Outdoors are the foundation of scouting.

 

This may be anathema to some folks, but I say that not matter what uniform the BSA decides on (even if it's only a T-shirt and jeans), no matter what is taught in advance leader training, as long as their is the Patrol Method, with youth actually running things, and the "OUTING in ScOUTING," this organization will survive.

[sherminator505]

BrentAllen writes:

 

"Kudu,

Would it make you happy if WB correctly attributed the "game with a purpose" quote to Green Bar Bill instead of B-P? Are your shorts really in that much of a knot?"

 

Brent, this reads like an I/P post! If this is really a question for you, then I suggest that you re-read Kudu's posts in this and other threads and you will have your answer.

 

BadenP writes:

 

"Moosetracker

 

While you may have a point there are a lot of very good boy scout troops out there that do not follow the current BSA troop guidelines in their programs. Kudu and Stosh at least try to stick to the original program set up by the founder, which in all honesty has really gotten watered down over time with the emphasis on management skills vs. scouting skills. Kudu is also correct, IMO, that Bill Hillcourt did an awful lot in saving the rapidly shrinking and poorly thought out boy scout program of the 1970's by rewriting it and bringing it back to the "basics". I would much rather see scouting done Kudu's way then for example the way the LDS church has twisted the program to fit the religious needs of their faith and other faiths who have done the same thing. The boy scout program was never meant to be used as an indoctrination or propaganda tool for any religion.

 

As Kudu, Beavah, and others here have pointed out time and time again the current BSA training set up for Boy Scout Leaders does not do an adequate job in preparing them to lead a troop and while management is a part of the process, having enough training to master the essential scoutcraft skills is and should be the priority. The format and content of current National training is just the opposite of that goal. The result is undertrained SM's and ASM's and dull programs that are losing more boys every year. National has to take a serious look at the current boy scout program and re-evaluate its effectiveness before it is too late."

 

You pretty much nailed it, although I disagree with the premise that the 1970's experiment ever fully ended.(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

[moosetracker]

Ok I will admit when I am wrong (at least about what started my statements)

 

I look back to find what Kudu wrote, and I see the following:

 

"In Baden-Powell's Scouting there is no Troop committee of moms & dads. Period.

 

The Patrol Leaders control the checkbook."

 

But I really remember reading more then this that stated jblake was wrong to have a committee.. I stated that you needed a committee of at least 3 in order to recharter and Eagle92 replied

 

"One of the beautiful things about Scouting is that it is adaptable. If you want to follow a traditional program, then you can do it, as along as it follows G2SS, and everything that Kudu mentions is permitted."

 

Meaning if you state you are traditional you can forgo having a committee of 3 or more and have no committee. This really threw me that you can ignore what is required in order to reregister if those were not required to reregister in 1912 (did they even need to reregister yearly in 1912).. Such as ignore having a committee, Youth protection, manditory training etc.

 

Other then that all that I said I believe.

 

Yes - you don't have to follow the current policies to a "T", but you should not tell someone else they are wrong if they choose to follow the policies. Or not follow some of the policies.

 

Yes - you can buck the system, to a point (whether it be the modern system or the system of 1912).. But make sure your policies are fair to the boys in an equal fashion. And you should have a program that is on the up and up to a point that you will open your doors to any boy with an interest in the type of program you are running.. The boys should get to hear your program and your approach and choose to join or not. You as a troop shouldn't pick & choose your scouts. (except the rare incidents where you have background problems with the scout, that would cause the troop to request they leave (or not return) for the health of the rest of the unit.)

 

Our troop doesn't follow all the rules to a "T" either there are things we have modified. We have the opposite of Kudu.. We have the 18 - 20 year olds wanting into the administration and have opened our doors to them in the committee.. The troop has given them the vote. The district can't give them the vote, but welcome them into the committee.

 

My VP of Training on the District Committee is a 18 or 19 year old young women who chose NOT to go into Ventureing but has joined a Boy Scout Troop as an ASM. Actually she is my son's fiancee, but that is not why I chose her, she is bright & dedicated and is going to college to be a teacher, so this position is a great opportunity for her.

[Engineer61]

"So what makes Scouting a lousy high school program - or not?"

 

I don't know that I'd use the word "lousy"...I might choose "disjoint", "unappealing" or "lack-luster".

 

As children get older, the size of their connected group gets larger and the available activities expand.

 

In elementary school, the group is the size of the class or at most grade.

 

In middle school, the group expands two-dimensionally, more kids per grade and the grades themselves combine more to some extent. Dances, plays, bands, sports...

 

In high school, the group really expands. Again in more students within the grade and more grades that are integrally involved with each other. Making friends across grade levels is far easier. And the opportunities for activities really expands...music, sports, clubs, student government, volunteering, committees...

 

On the other hand, Scouting, from Cub all the way through...remains largely static...and small in size. By and large, new scouts come in the bottom and old scouts go out the top....there are some transfers in and out, but that is a very small percentage. The only significant change in the group occurs at crossover where 1/2 the boys don't move on...so it's always downward.

 

There also appears to be classes within Scouts that really don't exist in the same way within schools. You have those Scouts that are driven (by whatever source) to Eagle as quickly as possible; a middle class that is interested in Eagle, but in due time; and a third class that are there to have fun, do some camping and get some fun badges. Within such a small group, my thought is that it tends to make for some interesting relationship dynamics.

 

I really don't think there is anything that Scouting would (or could or should) do about this...Scouting is what it is...and the leadership hierarchy seems to be happy with that.