A good middle school program but lousy HS program

[Stosh]

If one is going to give someone responsibility to do a job, they must also give them the authority to do it. An adult-led program will give responsibility to do something and retain the ultimate authority. This creates good followers, but until the authority is also given to the boys, they will never develop leadership. Just watch a "boy-led" program and if someone needs some help who do they go to? The SM? an ASM? .... Usually the last person they seek help from is their PL because the boys all know he doesn't have the final say-so in anything anyway. Any SM who has to say, "Go talk to your PL" is admitting out loud that they have totally failed in setting up any leadership amongst the boys.

 

Like the "money trail", when it comes to leadership, look at the "authority trail."

 

"YOU CAN'T LET THE BOYS JUST DO WHAT THEY WANT!!!!"

 

Why not, that's true leadership. If one has trained them up in the ways of BSA, one shouldn't have any concerns about turning the reins over to them and let them go off and do something like real leadership, maybe a patrol outing without adults. (insert gasp! here)

 

A scout is trustworthy, but not many SM's can trust their best boys with total authority! Maybe it's time we actually let our boys live by the Scout Oath and Law so that they can honestly get that requirement checked off.

 

I had an interesting troop committee meeting last night. New CC called everyone together. When it came time for the SPL to make a report from the boy's perspective on the program, he didn't have anything. The CC tore into him full force! Basically, you have let down your buddies by not coming prepared. We went on and when it came to what the boys are planning to do in the next year, the SPL didn't have the calendar filled out ready to go. Well, he then got the other barrel from the CC. We went on with the treasurer's report (while the CC reloaded the double barrel) He then asked the SPL for the QM report and wanted to know what equipment the troop was short of. The SPL hemmed and hawed a bit and said maybe two stoves. At which time the CC asked white gas or propane? wanted a cost breakdown, and usage costs. (all this info had been made available to him over the course of last year) He couldn't remember.... The CC told him he had 2 weeks to come up with a cost proposal in detail for tents and stoves for the troop and presented to the treasurer for the committee's consideration. Her final shot was she expected to have a proposal for some kind of high adventure trip next summer for the older boys besides summer camp. The older boys had a month to make their wishes known in writing to the committee.

 

The boy finally got to the snapping point and basically said that the boys didn't really want to be doing all this kind of planning, studying and making reports because some adult is going to go and change it all anyway. There was a long and painful pause after which the CC said very quietly, This troop is a boy-led, patrol-method troop. The quicker you figure that out and start running your own show the less likely you'll have a bad day at a troop committee meeting because every adult in this room is in agreement that you are to run the program, so you had better start doing so. If you have any questions on how this is done, talk with your SM and quit wasting everyone's time.

 

I really think now that one of the reasons the boys have been reluctant to be boy-led is not because they didn't know what to do, but because they didn't really trust the adults to give them the authority along with the responsibility to run the program themselves. I'm hoping my CC clarified it a bit for the boys last night.

 

Stosh

[Thomas54]

 

In a truly Boy Led troop the SPL would have more control over the checkbook and not have to justify to some CC that the troop needs stoves. That's a program issue between him and the SM.

 

To me this is a fundamental issue in troops. The CC should have oversight of the treasury but not complete autocratic rule over every expenditure. The Spl should be justifing the stove purchases to his PLC.

 

There are two major things that decide who runs the troop, the checkbook and the calendar. If the committee's mom & dads have complete control over both, that is an adult run troop.

 

Also I would not take kindly to a CC digging in full force to my SPL. That's for the SM to do in his own way. The CC should have asked why I allowed the SPL to come to such an important meeting unprepared. Why had I not guided and instructed the Scout on what might be expected at an adult committee meeting.

 

Honestly, Jblake47, sometimes your complete montessori approach to governing your troop perplexes me.

 

 

 

 

 

[Kudu]

Thomas54 writes:

 

Honestly, Jblake47, sometimes your complete montessori approach to governing your troop perplexes me.

 

Would you explain that for us, Thomas54?

 

Baden-Powell was rather proud of the fact that when asked why her program did not continue on into middle school, Montessori replied that (Baden-Powell's version of) Scouting was the perfect application of her principles for older boys.

 

That being said, B-P's program is consistent with Thomas54's observations except that the Patrol Leaders run the Troop, not the SPL.

 

In Baden-Powell's Scouting there is no Troop committee of moms & dads. Period.

 

The Patrol Leaders control the checkbook.

 

Thomas54 writes:

 

There are two major things that decide who runs the troop, the checkbook and the calendar.

 

That is a quote worth remembering.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[Eagle92]

Stosh,

Mixed emotions about the committee meeting. Don't like the fact that the SPL got reamed, but if this was after being notifiied of what was expected, aided by you in preparing (Ok what have you got ready, what about....) and still not prepared, then maybe it was in order (that's the problem with message communication vs face to face, can't get the tone or facial gestures).

 

On the other hand, that is a real world expereince on the importance of preparation. Also like the fact that the CC gets the program AND demands a HA activity for the older scouts. Further she clarified that she won't interfere, which is always a plus.

[moosetracker]

As Eagle92 states, maybe not good to get chewed out if SPL had no prior knowledge of the shifting changes of authority.. But otherwise good that your CC & CM's will support you in giving the Scouts authority..

 

Kudo - Everyone runs a different program. Yours is different because it is living in the past and in many ways going against current BSA policy.. You can not expect everyone to follow your ideas and buck the system..

 

In the present all Troops must have a committee of at least 3 people. Every committee should have a CC and a treasurer on it's staff. So most troops unit leaders work with their committee's (or fight with their committees) in order to follow the current guidelines of a troop Adult leader structure.

 

Therefore rather then expect everyone to work against the system, accept that some troops can find ways for the Unit leaders and committee members can work together in harmany in order to give the authority back to the scouts.

 

Some of us think maybe the SPL getting chewed out by the CC may have been a little harsh, but JBlake (who is either SM or ASM not sure).. Was perfectly fine with it, meaning we don't have the complete background story, or their troop has a different set of expectations and runs a little differently then ours would.

[Eagledad]

>>I really think now that one of the reasons the boys have been reluctant to be boy-led is not because they didn't know what to do, but because they didn't really trust the adults to give them the authority along with the responsibility to run the program themselves. I'm hoping my CC clarified it a bit for the boys last night.

[Eagle92]

Moose,

 

One of the beautiful things about Scouting is that it is adaptable. If you want to follow a traditional program, then you can do it, as along as it follows G2SS, and everything that Kudu mentions is permitted.

 

Grant you Kudu does sometimes goes overboard on the WB21C course, but he is passionate about the BSA, and that is a good thing. He probably saw first hand what the 1972 program did to scouting, prays that it never happens again, and will fight tooth and nail to keep the "OUTING in ScOUTING."

 

My personal opinion is that you let the scouts do the work and let the adults do an 'Al Bundy' impersonation of sitting around a campfire, drinking coffee, and letting the scouts run things. Yep they will be mistakes, screw up things, heck maybe even do things a little differently than you would do it. But it's their chance to learn and grow.

 

[moosetracker]

Huh? So are you saying that if the rechartering dictates you need 3 committee members (at least) you can tell them you are running a traditional program, and therefore do not need committee members? Nor do you need any of the required training that is necessary for your adult leaders to reregister?

 

Your right I am amazed at that.

 

Still none the less it does not mean that everyone not folling the 1912 BSA rule book is wrong for following the current rules of BSA. One such thing would be utilizing a Committee of 3 or more.

[Stosh]

 

Yep, we do it a bit different.

 

The new CC called her first committee meeting. She talked to me about having a SM report of the program and it's goals/aims and where we stand with that.

 

She also asked permission to approach the SPL for a report from the boys. I figured she could relay her expectation without me as a middle man and said that would be fine.

 

She asked the treasurer to be on hand to give a full accounting of where we stood as a troop financially.

 

Every parent was invited to attend and offer input if they wished to do so.

 

Every scout was invited to attend and offer input if they wished to do so.

 

Everyone had their marching orders. It wasn't any witch hunt kind of thingy, she was genuinely interested in where we stood as a troop as she took over the reins from a CC that had held that post for at least 3 years and was SM before that.

 

She came prepared with adult applications for any new adult volunteers and had MB sign up sheets for those parents who felt capable to doing MB's for the troop. She took copious notes and didn't interrupt anyone making a presentation or comment.

 

I'm thinking that the only one who didn't come prepared was the SPL who felt he might be able to wing it at the last minute. He guessed wrong, that's all. I'm thinking he won't make that mistake next time.

 

The treasurer got a whole litany of questions about how the funds are handled, how the popcorn sale was going, how they handled education costs for adults, who paid for what, individual scout account system, etc. etc. The treasurer had precise and explicit answers for all the questions.

 

The SM got his questions too. Why Boy-Led, Patrol-Method? Why full uniforms? Are the boys all trained for their positions. What are the ranks and levels of expertise for each of the boys, are they progressing according to their abilities, etc. What POR does each boy have, when's the next COH, etc. etc. I had to do some light quick-stepping here and there too.

 

I'm just thinking everyone but the SPL was taking this meeting very seriously.

 

"In a truly Boy Led troop the SPL would have more control over the checkbook and not have to justify to some CC that the troop needs stoves. That's a program issue between him and the SM."

 

First of all we don't have a standing SPL, this is the PL of the one patrol we have, as soon as we recruit two more boys, we will be back at 2 patrol strength. I don't foresee a standing SPL until we get up around 4 patrols and need a full-time PLC. Usually the boy that is doing PL just steps up when some adult asks for an SPL. They could have just as easily asked for the PL if there was only one patrol. If there had been two patrols, I'm thinking with her philosophy and mine being so similar she would have invited both PL's and requested two reports, one from each patrol.

 

Nope, the QUARTERMASTER doesn't need to justify anything to the committee, but a careful study of troop equipment needs would allow the committee to decide okay, we need stoves, tents and flies. We have enough for 2 of the 3, and might have to send the QM proposal back to see if he can adjust the numbers to fit the amount of money in the bank. The committee doesn't decide whether or not the purchase is going to be made, so the QM isn't looking for any adult approval, just adult support in getting the equipment paid for in an appropriate manner. They might toss in some suggestions as to waiting for the tents to go on sale at the end of summer, etc.

 

And no, the SM is not involved in the equipment of the patrols/troop. The QM and committee treasurer work that out without the SM's interference.

 

"Some of us think maybe the SPL getting chewed out by the CC may have been a little harsh, but JBlake (who is either SM or ASM not sure).. Was perfectly fine with it, meaning we don't have the complete background story, or their troop has a different set of expectations and runs a little differently then ours would."

 

I'm the SM. And to a certain degree I got a bit of marching orders to get this troop moving forward, too. One has to remember this CC is a mom of one of our boys and is very soft-spoken but doesn't fluff anything up. It's straight forward and lay your cards on the table. Don't have any cards? Why not?! She does it rather quietly and along with the "Mom Stare", it's unnerving even to me. I walked out of the meeting thinking about the adage: "If Mom ain't happy, nobody's happy!"

 

"Kudo - Everyone runs a different program. Yours is different because it is living in the past and in many ways going against current BSA policy.. You can not expect everyone to follow your ideas and buck the system."

 

Nope, but I'm kinda a lot in Kudu's camp because the ideas he proposes work for my boys. Along with TLT, they have all completed the Green Bar Bill materials and prefer it over the new stuff. Living in the past, outdated, buck the system, etc. I don't care, because if that's what the boys want and it works for them, we go that route.

 

It must be working, I've got two Eagles through the program, one Life Scout with special needs working on his project, and my chewed up/spit out "SPL" turning Life at the end of next month and will be starting his Eagle project at age 14. Not bad for only my 3rd year as SM. All the boys currently in the troop crossed over or transferred in because of the way we do boy-led, patrol-method. We've lost a lot of boys that didn't want to work very hard at scouting to the other troop and missed out on 40+ Webelos cross-overs the past 3 years because parents want an adult-led program for their boys.

 

Does it work? One of my Eagles is aged out and is currently an active ASM and the other boy is only 16 and is still in the troop working with the boys and their projects as a JASM.

 

My lousy HS program isn't really all that lousy.

 

Stosh

[Kudu]

Moosetracker writes:

 

Kudo

 

That is Kudu with two u's. Please make a note of it, Mousetracker

 

Moosetracker writes:

 

Everyone runs a different program.

 

My point exactly.

 

Yours is different because it is living in the past

 

As long as Wood Badge continues to use portraits of Baden-Powell and Fake Baden-Powell quotes to lend authority to its corporate "leadership" program, it is my duty to point out how corporate cubical techniques differ from what Baden-Powell considered to be real Scouting. Especially on Scouter.Com, a Website dedicated to William Hillcourt who coined the term "Real Patrol."

 

Moosetracker writes:

 

that and in many ways going against current BSA policy.

 

"Current BSA policy" is in violation of our Congressional Charter, isn't it? The BSA's power to knock out competing Baden-Powell-based Scouting corporations is founded on an Act of Congress that sets as one of the "Purposes" of our corporation the Scoutcraft methods in use on June 15, 1916.

 

So "living in the past" is a just a prejudicial way to ridicule those of us who obey the law rather than peer pressure. Do "modern" corporate "leadership" group-think techniques take precedence over an Act of Congress?

 

Moosetracker writes:

 

You can not expect everyone to follow your ideas and buck the system.

 

Unless you have actually sat down and read the two volume set of official BSA rules and regulations, then Eagle92 (a former BSA professional) probably knows more about what those rules actually are than you do. If you try to guess the rules by reading the BSA publications and training available to BSA volunteers, then you must believe that "current BSA policy" dictates that the "Patrol Method" has replaced Patrols and Patrol Leaders with Adult Association + EDGE.

 

The point is that if you understand how Scouting was designed to work, then you can pick and choose how to operate a Troop within the actual rules and regulations of the BSA (as opposed to the Fake Leadership + Webelos III Scoutcraft program taught in BSA training, which most teenagers have consistently hated since 1972).

 

My last Troop was similar in many of the ways in which Stosh describes his, except that I had access to the local public school for recruiting. That means that I could recruit Scouts by offering them the Scoutcraft methods in use on June 15, 1916. So, in two years I had a Troop of 30 Scouts whose parents were just happy to get them out of the house, rather than ex-Webelos whose parents are more likely to pressure them to earn Eagle.

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

[sailingpj]

Hey Kudu, where can one find that two volume set of BSA rules and regulations? Is that something you can order from somewhere or something? I would like to take a look at it.

[moosetracker]

LOL I replied last night but in the wrong thread.. So if this looks like Dj vu it is, I incorrectly put it in Test Out options.. Not that it is totally wrong there as my opinion involves something TNScouterTroop said in that thread, not this one.

 

Kudu The statement "living in the past" is NOT a prejudicial way to ridicule. I would state that the Amish are people who are living in the past. I am not ridiculing them. In fact I admire them, but could not live like them.

Bucking the system is not all so bad either as long as you dont take it to an extreme. It is fine to a point.. But only to a point. If the boys enjoy the program and you are fair to everyone, and you do not add to the requirements for rank advancement, only do things that ensure the requirements are truly met that all the boys are equally judged upon.

I do not know about your troop and its bucking the system if it has gone to feeling it is elite to the point of picking & choosing your scouts. I fear TNScoutTroop is organizing for a bucking the system where they are already planning to discourage transfers, and are unsure how to let people from outside their church in with a good screening to see if they have the right mindset. This is a start of a very slippery slope, that can easily turn into a bucking the system where the wrong kind of kids that join even though discouraged not to, are then encouraged to leave by not treating them unfairly, like pushing harder than required advancement goals onto those kids, or setting up a pass/fail board where those who fail are more apt to be those they dont want in the troop anyway, or having subgroups where their quality scouts can join, and the sub-scouts cannot.

You may be following some rules, there may be some book somewhere that state these rules are still in effect. But my state also still has rules on its books that state you can be arrested for spitting on the sidewalk. All margarine sold must be dyed pink, and it is illegal to look up when sitting on the toilet on a Sunday (who was enforcing that law I do not know.).. Anyway those not following those rules today can still be arrested because the laws are on the books to this day.

So many troops follow what the current council has put out in writing, and have been taught in training. Because they are not following the rules you wish to follow, but are following the BSA rules that are in current print. Does not make you wrong, but also does not make them wrong either.

 

I also think if it is something required for re-chartering today, then it should be required for all units, regardless of if you are a troop who follow the rules of 1912, or the rules of 2010. I am sure the Amish still abide by the Federal & state laws. Maybe that is not true, but YPT was not around in 1912.. It should be part of your program.

 

What will make you wrong is if you start to believe you are elite enough pick & choose your scouts and make judgment calls on who is Eagle material and who is not, then make the Eagle rank attainable to those you think should have it and unattainable to those you think should not. That type of bucking the system is just not right

[Eagle92]

Sailing,

Those two pamphlets are infrequently printed and are a bin item, meaning the council has to order it for you. So they are very hard to get. DEs should have a copy of them in their red books though. I made the mistake of giving mine up when I left the profession to my District commissioner.

 

That said, if you google the actual names of the pamphlets, using quotation marks around the title, someone has posted them on a website that allows you to read them and print them, but not save them. Sorry I cannot provide the link, but I found them using my old computer which crashed.

[Thomas54]

 

 

Although they can both speak for themselves let me say that I hold respect and admiration for both Jblake and Kudu. I have read their posts for years and believe that they both oversee well run, boy led programs.

 

Their posts may indicate that their programs are considerably different, even radical compared to all other units but I bet if you walked into their troop meeting it would look, sound and feel very much the typical boy scout troop.

 

I may question, ponder or get perplexed over the subtleties of a particular incident but if I lived near their units I bet I would want my son in their programs.

 

Thank You

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Kudu,

Would it make you happy if WB correctly attributed the "game with a purpose" quote to Green Bar Bill instead of B-P? Are your shorts really in that much of a knot?