Compare Scouting vs Sports ?

[NJCubScouter]

7 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

In short, no-one.  The leaders of these activities understand that to field a team, they need participation.  So, they draw a line and say "no participation, no team."  Most of use Scouters are not willing to do the same.

So, in short, for the most part, we do it to ourselves.

I think a lot of Scouters have TRIED to do the same and have found that the parents and Scouts, given a choice between sports and Scouting, will usually choose sports.  So the "free market" dictates that it's us who make the accommodation, and not the coaches.  

[SteveMM]

1 minute ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think a lot of Scouters have TRIED to do the same and have found that the parents and Scouts, given a choice between sports and Scouting, will usually choose sports.  So the "free market" dictates that it's us who make the accommodation, and not the coaches.  

Our SM has tried to do this, even going so far as to have a sign-in sheet so he can tally how often Scouts come to meetings.  Frankly, I bristle at this.  Scouts who don't show up won't get elected to leadership positions, nor will they complete requirements for rank.  That should be enough to encourage them to come to meetings. 

[NJCubScouter]

3 minutes ago, SteveMM said:

Our SM has tried to do this, even going so far as to have a sign-in sheet so he can tally how often Scouts come to meetings.  Frankly, I bristle at this.  Scouts who don't show up won't get elected to leadership positions, nor will they complete requirements for rank.  That should be enough to encourage them to come to meetings. 

Our troop traditionally takes attendance, which is to say that there have been times when the scribe has taken attendance and times where he hasn't, usually depending on how hard the SM at the time pushed the SPL at the time to push the Scribe at the time.  How the attendance records are used, if at all, is not consistent as well.  (I am talking about a 16-year period during which I have been a troop committee member and sometime Advancement Chair.  Currently our troop is down to about 6 or 7 Scouts so nobody bothers to take attendance.

[ParkMan]

35 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think a lot of Scouters have TRIED to do the same and have found that the parents and Scouts, given a choice between sports and Scouting, will usually choose sports.  So the "free market" dictates that it's us who make the accommodation, and not the coaches.  

So, I'd peel the onion here.

Why are they willing to choose sports and walk away from scouting?

 

[NJCubScouter]

10 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

So, I'd peel the onion here.

Why are they willing to choose sports and walk away from scouting?

I already mentioned what I think is probably the biggest reason:  The parents push sports over Scouting because they believe it is in their financial best interests to do so - regardless of whether it actually is or not.

On a related note, I think that by the end of what is now almost SIX YEARS of Cub Scouting, the parents (particularly those who were not Scouts themselves) tend to think that their sons have "done Scouting" and have gotten all the benefit they can out of it (of course, we know they're wrong, but they don't.)  On the other hand, they view the benefits of sports as just beginning at that age.

[ParkMan]

Just now, NJCubScouter said:

I already mentioned what I think is probably the biggest reason:  The parents push sports over Scouting because they believe it is in their financial best interests to do so - regardless of whether it actually is or not.

On a related note, I think that by the end of what is now almost SIX YEARS of Cub Scouting, the parents (particularly those who were not Scouts themselves) tend to think that their sons have "done Scouting" and have gotten all the benefit they can out of it (of course, we know they're wrong, but they don't.)  On the other hand, they view the benefits of sports as just beginning at that age.

Thanks.

We can't really do anything about the financial interests. If parents are going for a sport scholorship, then more power to them.

As for being "done Scouting" - this is in our power to address.

[SubSM]

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think a lot of Scouters have TRIED to do the same and have found that the parents and Scouts, given a choice between sports and Scouting, will usually choose sports.  So the "free market" dictates that it's us who make the accommodation, and not the coaches.  

It’s that free market angle that I am looking to work on. I really don’t think there is much marketing, that I have seen, touting the benefits of scouting. There are many advertisements for sports, but not scouts. 

 I can see this becoming a WB ticket in someone’s future. 🤔

Mike

[walk in the woods]

34 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

So, I'd peel the onion here.

Why are they willing to choose sports and walk away from scouting?

 

Depends on what type of sports you are talking about.  Speaking only of the rural community I grew up in, and second one I used to live in, the schools are the heart of the community, part of the community identity, and, often in a multi-generational way.  School sanctioned activities are higher priority than non-school activities.  It has nothing, or at least very little, to do with dreams of scholarships.  It's simply the reality of where people place their priority.  In some cases it is the school activity that keeps the kid in school.  It's a really short decision tree between camping with the Scouts, or, being at a Saturday practice/game/rehearsal.  

[NJCubScouter]

4 minutes ago, SubSM said:

It’s that free market angle that I am looking to work on. I really don’t think there is much marketing, that I have seen, touting the benefits of scouting. There are many advertisements for sports, but not scouts. 

 I can see this becoming a WB ticket in someone’s future. 🤔

Mike

When I was a Cub Scout and Boy Scout (mid-60's to mid-70's) there were ads for Boy Scouting on tv on a regular basis.  I don't actually know when they stopped.  There have been several discussions of BSA advertising in this forum over the years.  Some have said that National makes tv ads for Scouting available to the councils but that the councils don't use them.  (I had been under the impression that the old BSA ads were "public service announcements," which I assume means the advertiser doesn't have to pay for them.  If that's not the case, or is no longer the case, then the fact that the councils don't use them makes a little more sense, because they cost money.)

[Eagledad]

47 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

So, I'd peel the onion here.

Why are they willing to choose sports and walk away from scouting?

 

Because the scouting experience doesn't have the value of the sports. Our troop had a reputation as welcoming athletes, but in truth most troops really don't mind. What made us more attractive was our program. Oh yes, we were willing to let scouts arrive to Camp Saturday morning after friday's nights football or band.  But, those scouts could of easily not bothered to camp that weekend at all. Program, program. program.

Barry

[ParkMan]

5 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Because the scouting experience doesn't have the value of the sports. Our troop had a reputation as welcoming athletes, but in truth most troops really don't mind. What made us more attractive was our program. Oh yes, we were willing to let scouts arrive to Camp Saturday morning after friday's nights football or band.  But, those scouts could of easily not bothered to camp that weekend at all. Program, program. program.

Barry

Do you think it's a case of:

A. scouting doesn't have the value of sports?

-- or --

B. the typical troop program doesn't have the value of the typical sports team?

[NJCubScouter]

I think I am u$ing "value" to mean $omething different from the re$t of you.   

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by NJCubScouter

[ParkMan]

6 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think I am u$ing "value" to mean $omething different from the re$t of you.   

 

Might be a  NJ thing

[Owls_are_cool]

I managed a Little League baseball team for one year. A year later, I wonder at times what if I ran that team like I did as scoutmaster of my troop? Baseball players would pick a captain to make the final decisions, then the captain would figure out a process to determine which player would play which position, batting lineups, who would man the 1st and 3rd base coach spots, when to practice, etc. All I would have to do is make sure they follow the rules and secure practice fields and transportation. 

Scouts certainly benefit from running their own program, especially if it is messy.

[Eagledad]

6 minutes ago, Owls_are_cool said:

I managed a Little League baseball team for one year. A year later, I wonder at times what if I ran that team like I did as scoutmaster of my troop? Baseball players would pick a captain to make the final decisions, then the captain would figure out a process to determine which player would play which position, batting lineups, who would man the 1st and 3rd base coach spots, when to practice, etc. All I would have to do is make sure they follow the rules and secure practice fields and transportation. 

Scouts certainly benefit from running their own program, especially if it is messy.

Since all our soccer players were scouts, we tried similar ideas like this and the answer is yes, they did take charge because to not do so would be to loose. It was very much like sandlot sports. 

One of the players on my soccer team came from a traveling team who got to tour and play several teams in Ireland. They were beat every time. I talked to dad about that and he said the players in Ireland didn't have quite the personal skills of American players, but they were much better team players. The coaches in Ireland at that level have less personal time to coach, so the players have more freedom to make decisions. That freedom allows the players to be creative and adjust to match the competition. He said teams in America are limited by the creativity of the coach. Better teams in the US typically have better coaches. That may not be the case in Ireland.

My dad said that before he was the SM of his troop during WWII, their troop would camp without the SM. They would then report to the scoutmaster the next week of their experiences and decisions and he would coach and mentor them from those experiences and decisions. Probably the perfect patrol method program.

The success of our county has developed a culture with a layer of safety for our children that we simply are not willing risk. As a result, our youth require longer spans of life to reach the same level of independence and maturity than kids 80 years ago. 

Barry