Scout interest fading...causing conflict.

[John-in-KC]

Oh, dear Lord.

 

I'm with Beavah.

 

He's 12. Twelve. He has five years and loose change to enjoy so many different trails in Scouting. Let him do so ... please.

 

EagleSon turned 21 this summer. He's now aged out of the youth programs of Scouting. Along the way, he has...

 

- Staffed five seasons at one of our Council Scout Reservations.

- Camped as a camper until after he had turned 18. (The main reason he didn't camp the last three years was his summer staff contract got longer, and there were things he wanted to do outside of Scout Camp ... like a band tour his HS graduation summer, and a low brass clinic this year).

- Went to a Philmont trek

- Several OA induction weekends, fall fellowships and winter banquets.

 

Every young person has their own trail to blaze. Tell your bride, his Mom, that he's got lots of time to explore ... and then let him be part of the game with a purpose. He's already taking to heart an ethos of service to others. How many non-Scouting parents would like that in their kids?

[Engineer61]

Well, since I really don't want my head lopped off, I'm remaining on the sidelines until my Scout wants to speak up and say enough.

 

So far, he's been on the Family Campout and missed about 1/2 the weekly meetings due to homework....which I think he's probably using as an excuse...

 

At the last visit to the Scout Shop, he picked out some MB books...none were Eagle requirements...I noticed that Mom was not 100% behind the choices, tried to direct some Eagle MB's into the mix...nothing doing.

 

He is void of all leadership functions at the moment...not sure if that was his plan...but that's the way it worked out. Not real happy with the Patrol he's in...they merged two (Hawks and Wolves) and decided to call them the Flying Wolves...he thought it "stupid".

 

On the sidelines....

[NJCubScouter]

Engineer, maybe I missed this as I did not read all the posts above, but what rank is your son, at age 12?

 

It seems to me that if he is progressing along with the lower ranks, and especially if he is already First Class or above at age 12, what your wife is doing is the best way to ensure that he does NOT continue through Eagle. (It seems you know that already.) A parent meddling in what merit badges their son goes for at age 16 is one thing -- still not a great thing, but understandable. At age 12, it is inexcusable. I would regard any boy with sufficient time to make Eagle picking out ANY merit badge pamphlet as a great thing. So he gets Coin Collecting, or Pet Care, or Reading (the one I kept pushing my son to get, he met all the requirements just by doing what he did anyway, he would just never get the card and go see a counselor), or Farm Management (do they still have that one) or Law (yay, and my son DID get that one, without me even knowing until he had it) or any of the others, instead of First Aid or the Cits or Personal Management. That's great. Kids find those kinds of badges fun (remember fun, Mom?), partly because you DON'T have to do them. (And not just because the Law counselor showed the kids (it was a group getting the badge) scenes from "My Cousin Vinny" as an example of courtroom technique.)

 

And if, at the age of 14 or 15 or 16 he decides he does want to go for Eagle, the decision will be much easier because he'll have all his non-required badges done and can just concentrate on the requireds. Personally I think some of those required badges are more age-appropriate for high school students, for example the Cits and Personal Management, not that younger boys should be discouraged from going for them, but they may seem like less of a chore for a 15 or 16 year old boy.

 

On a more general note, I think your wife and other family members need to understand that there are all different ways for a boy to make Eagle, or NOT make Eagle. I quite frankly almost fell off my chair when I read that all this fuss was over someone who has more than 5 years remaining to work on the requirements. Someday maybe you and I and Eamonn can stop at his local watering hole, and over a round of Stoneys (that post I did read) I can tell you the long and almost-tragic story of how my son spent the 40 days or so prior to his 18th birthday, how he got himself into that position, and how many other people were inconvenienced as a result of it. But I can also tell you that if I had been pushing him to get Eagle-required MB's at age 12 instead of what he wanted to do, he might very well have stopped right there.

[Eagledad]

We had around 15 Eagles while I was Scoutmaster. Of the 15, 10 finished their Eagle within six months of their 18th birthday. However, we have an active program that the scouts like to hang around. 40% of our scouts are 14 and older. Around the corner is a much larger troop that gives each new scout a road map to earning Eagle by age 14. They pick 14 because they loose 75% of their scouts at that age. For what ever reason, the scouts don't like to hang around after that. So, if a scout wants to get his Eagle in that troop, he needs to get it by age 14. There is no hurry in our troop. Troops make a difference.

 

I've done this a while and have worked with many moms like your wife. They rarely are quick to change. They have an agenda that in their mind is in the "best" interest of their son. It takes a lot of educating and time to convince mom that everyone else has that same best interest. So, I'm not sure much can change in the short time. We leaders think in a five or six year time frame. Moms typically think in two or three. I'm pretty sure your wife doesn't see your son in a scout uniform past 14 because she has other things lined up for her son to build is resume for life. I think your son is going to have to set the course here, but it would be nice if dad could help soften the path a little.

 

Barry

[Kudu]

Engineer61 writes:

 

So, my Scout's interest in Scouting is pretty simple. He wants to do the "fun badges", go camping, help on other's Eagle projects

 

If it is any consolation, it is just human nature for boys to hate the paperwork Merit Badges.

 

In fact 103 years ago a major-general called the "Hero of Mafeking," invented a game for boys that was the exact opposite of this kind of schoolwork. All requirements for his game were based on "Scoutcraft" and "Service for Others."

 

In other words, fun badges: go camping and help on other's projects.

 

According to this guy, boys hate stuff like fake leadership, Personal Management, and Citizenship Merit Badges, have always hated stuff like fake leadership, Personal Management, and Citizenship Merit Badges, and will hate stuff like fake leadership, Personal Management, and Citizenship Merit Badges until the end of time.

 

But what did anyone know about human nature 103 years ago, huh?

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

(This message has been edited by kudu)

[Eagle92]

Kudu,

More or less agree with ya. Although it depends upon how the MBC deals with it. My CitCom, Nat, and World counselor was awesome and made it fun.Yes there was paperwork, but he related it to scouting. Also Nat and World were worked on while preparing for my 64 mile canoe trip in Canada, with side trip to DC. So it was relevent to my trip.

 

Personal management on the other hand....

 

The problem as I see it is that the schools are not preparign the scouts in these topics, at least in my neck of the woods. part of scouting is to teach citizenship and to prepare them physically, mentally, and morally. So scouting is filling in that role.

 

As for the scout losing interest,if mom keeps pushing, he will want to quit. At 12, let him do what he wants. let him try new things and make mistakes. Let him searchout the adventure that he wants. let him learn the things that interest him. Advancement comes natually.

 

Also it doesn't matter at what age you get Eagle: 12, 14, or 18, the responsibility and recognition are the same.

 

Also I knew folks who aged out at Star and Life, and they were better at scoutcraft than some Eagles I know

[Kudu]

Eagle92 writes:

 

Although it depends upon how the MBC deals with it. My CitCom, Nat, and World counselor was awesome and made it fun.

 

Honestly, if the BSA required that we brand "666" on the foreheads of our Scouts, then Scouting forums would be full of helpful suggestions on how to make the branding process "fun" and "related" to Scouting

 

Eagle92 writes:

 

The problem as I see it is that the schools are not preparing the scouts in these topics, at least in my neck of the woods.

 

So why Scouting?

 

If the schools are failing then why not have Little League take up the slack?

 

Little League could do what the BSA did: Get those boys indoors to learn the three branches of government and play fake leadership "team-building" exercises.

 

Unlike Little League, the inventor of Scouting specifically said (over and over and over) that his game is the very opposite of school!

 

Eagle92 writes:

 

part of scouting is to teach citizenship and to prepare them physically, mentally, and morally. So scouting is filling in that role.

 

No, Scouting is not filling that role.

 

Baden-Powell designed Scouting to teach citizenship by requiring small groups of Scouts (called Patrols) to learn Scoutcraft by organizing their own hikes into the woods without adult supervision.

 

Wood Badge intentionally took that away from American boys by ending Patrol Leader Training in 1972.

 

Now any cupcake can get an Eagle Badge without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back (as long as he is good at paperwork).

 

Such Eagle Scouts are equivalent to a Baden-Powell Second Class Scout because they did not prove their mastery of Scoutcraft with the First Class Journey.

 

Eagle92 writes:

 

Also I knew folks who aged out at Star and Life, and they were better at scoutcraft than some Eagles I know

 

Yes, BSA Boy Scouting is like BSA Cub Scouting, it filters out the boys for which Baden-Powell designed his game.

 

You know, the boys who want to do the "fun badges," help on other's service projects, and let the whole schoolwork thing go by!

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[Eagledad]

Our Scouts organized a few Mafeking campouts, but they change the theme to Star Wars and Star Trek. They enjoyed the games because they did them at night. They started about 9:00 PM after the campfire and ended around 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. It was the only campouts where the adults fixed breakfast for them.

 

Barry

[Eagle92]

Kudu,

As I mentioned, working on Cit Nat and World were done in conjunction with the HA trip. Lots of hiking around DC, did three trails we discovered at the post trip meeting, and canoeing and portaging in the Canadian Wilderness. Some requriements were met automatically, others we were told if we want the MB, then we needed to do. It was totally up to us. The MBCs I've worked with, outside of summer camp, tried to relate the p/w MBs to Scouting and life in general. Summer camp MBs were just plain fun: Indian Lore, First Aid, Canoeing, Cooking, Wilderness Survival, etc.

 

While I also think the schools need to do better, one reason I am homeschooling, There are ways to incorporate someof the PW Mbs into scouting. With PM, you can use a patrol's budget for a weekend as a foundation for other budgets. You are so correct in the PM is a model of our democratic republic, i.e. patrols elect PLs who represent the members on the PLC. You just go on to expand.

 

As for my friends who aged out at Star and Life, they just didn't have the interest in getting Eagle as they wanted to have fun. A few remained active after 18, but most went off to college or enlisted.

 

Now I agree with you 100% on wanting to work on the fun MBs. I wonder why some P/W MBs are even offered at summercamp. Scouts Should be in the outdoors not stuck in a classroom. heck the "only" classroom I ever went to was the healthlodge for FA and EP Mbs, and that's only when patients were in the lodge an the MBC needed to keep an ear open for them. teh rest of the time we were outside working ont he requirements.

[Engineer61]

TBTO, I don't for certain what my Scout's rank is...but I think he made 1st Class last year.

 

Scouting is not something I'm really atuned to...but you probably all know that by now...

 

He turns 13 in November.

 

Is sounds like the Scouting part of his family did spend the summer getting him to drink the Kool-aid so to speak...he now has this belief that "things" will be much easier if he gets Eagle.

 

When I asked him what things, he responded "getting in to better colleges, getting better jobs...stuff like that."

 

Yet another button pushed.

 

Drives me nuts.

[Eagle92]

A few things to ask your stepson Eng.

 

1) Are you having fun in Scouts? This is critical b/c if he isn't having fun, he will get out as soon as he gets Eagle, IF he even gets that far.

 

2) What do you like best about Scouting? Got to find out what he likes best to encourage hime to speal to his PL, or if he is a PL then at the PLC, what motivates him.

 

3) What does he like least about Scouting? Again needs to find out the things that discourage him.

 

4) What problems do you see ahead with Scouting?

 

5) What activities would he like to try, i.e. backpacking at Philmont, Canoeing in Northern Tier, doing a program at Sea Base,. jambo, etc.

 

5a) How plan to go about doing the activity?

 

6) What do you think about workign summer camp staff for a sumemr whn you get older?

 

7) Are adults to involved in Scouting, i.e. picking MBs, tellign you what to cook, etc?

 

8) What do you think about your mom's involvement with you in Scouting?

 

Depending upon the answers you may need to let him talk to his mom about her involvement. You may need to supprto him from getting her to back off. I personally cannot wait to have all 3 kids out camping in a troop so the wife and I can have the house to ourselves. All three have been informed that they will be working summer camp when they are old enough. that way My utilities and food bills will go down

[NJCubScouter]

Engineer61, it sounds from your last post as if your son has now decided to "go for Eagle", but probably for the wrong reasons, which have been provided to him by the family. If that's the case, and you were to continue to "fight", what you would be fighting over is not what he is doing (since apparently he will be advancing), but why he is doing it. It sounds to me like a battle you can't win, but even more importantly, you may not have to win it. Remember your son is growing into adulthood and will be increasingly able to figure things out for himself, regardless of what pressure may be put on him or what incorrect or ill-advised things he might be told. As he advances, he is going to learn things he would not otherwise have learned. He is going to overcome challenges. He is going to have to fulfill positions of responsibility, and he may decide that he likes doing so enough that he wishes to have a leadership position(s) in the troop. Perhaps he will decide to take leadership training. Maybe as he goes along he will decide to get involved in the other things Scouting has to offer (OA, High Adventure, etc.) beyond just what is required for Eagle. ANY of these things (much less all of them) will benefit your son in intangible ways -- the kind of benefits Scouting is SUPPOSED to bring, not just something to go on a job application -- far beyond his teenage years.

 

I guess what I am saying is, the wrong reasons are being fed to him now, but he will figure out his own reasons as he goes along, and they may turn out to be the right reasons.

 

The only fight that may still be worth fighting is the issue of people "pushing" your son to advance at a particular rate. He needs to choose his own pace, as long as it is one designed to meet the goal he has apparently now decided to set for himself. If "the family" are absolutely convinced he needs to be Eagle by (say) 14, there is going to be more drama and unhappiness. He has more than 5 years to make Eagle, although as I alluded to earlier, I have experienced close-up and personal what happens when someone ends up taking almost every minute of that time, and it isn't pretty. But there is a happy medium, and your son has the time to make a plan and follow it, and if he falls behind, still have time to make it. But as I said, this all assumes he doesn't have people yelling at him because he only got 5 merit badges when he was 13, or whether at the age of 12 he decided to go for Dog Care or Reading instead of Emergency Preparedness or Citizenship in the Nation. He doesn't need that. (But again, I'm preaching to the choir.)

[Engineer61]

I've already done some of these....

 

1) Are you having fun in Scouts? This is critical b/c if he isn't having fun, he will get out as soon as he gets Eagle, IF he even gets that far.

 

His response is sometimes yes, sometimes no.

 

2) What do you like best about Scouting? Got to find out what he likes best to encourage hime to speal to his PL, or if he is a PL then at the PLC, what motivates him.

 

His favorite is camping. He is not in any leadership position.

 

3) What does he like least about Scouting? Again needs to find out the things that discourage him.

 

Merit Badges in general...too much paper and busy work for him.

 

4) What problems do you see ahead with Scouting?

 

Summer camp with his troop will be a problem, since he travels out of state fro the summer. He's not outgoing and assertive enough to try provisional camping (which would have to be out of state).

 

5) What activities would he like to try, i.e. backpacking at Philmont, Canoeing in Northern Tier, doing a program at Sea Base,. jambo, etc.

 

He's really not shown any interests in any of the "big ticket" items...which is fine because we really don't have the resources for it....water based activites have to be limited since he is a poor swimmer and not interested in improving.

 

5a) How plan to go about doing the activity?

 

See above.

 

6) What do you think about workign summer camp staff for a sumemr whn you get older?

 

Haven't asked that one.

 

7) Are adults to involved in Scouting, i.e. picking MBs, tellign you what to cook, etc?

 

Or that one.

 

8) What do you think about your mom's involvement with you in Scouting?

 

Or that one.

 

 

Ironically, from the people I know in the troop....my wife seems to be the least pushy...I guess that says something about Scouting in my area...it seems to almost be a competition for the parents.

 

Having coached rec youth baseball for several years, it kinda drives me nutsy...kinda why I just stay out of the way.

[NJCubScouter]

Your last post also made me remember one thing. Unfortunately there are a lot of parents who see Scouting as a competition and as a resume-builder more than anything else. I was talking with the mother of a girl who was involved in a school activity with my son, and we got to discussing our respective childrens' Scouting activities. Apparently this girl had been heavily involved in Girl Scouts and got the Silver Award, but sometime during her junior year decided not to go for the Gold Award. Why? Because, by the time she actually achieved it, during her senior year, it would be past the time when her college applications would be due, so she could not put the Gold Award on the applications. This woman was saying this as if it made all the sense in the world, in fact I would not be surprised if this woman had told her daughter, why bother wasting the time going for Gold, since you won't get an immediate tangible benefit out of it? (Or words to that effect.) I successfully resisted the urge to yell at this woman. But, I mean, how short-sighted can a person be? How focused on the wrong things? And there are a lot of parents out there, and THIS is the attitude they are teaching their children. It sounds to me like your son has at least one parent who is focused on the right thing, so he's ahead of the game already. (At least in a long-term growth sense, not the immediate, make-Eagle-right-now-so-you-can-put-it-on-your-resume sense.)(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

[sherminator505]

I wouldn't be too worried about the boy at this age. Eagle Scout is often a "so what" kind of thing to 12-year-old Scouts, and a lot of them never get over that. Statistics say that a very small percentage of Scouts make Eagle. I believe that this has more to do with attitude than ability, as I believe most boys can make Eagle IF they take it up as a goal. Most either don't take it up or drop it when they discover sports, cars and girls. So as a Scouter or as a parent, I wouldn't see it as a failure if the boy simply doesn't do it.

 

As for the benefits of being an Eagle, I believe more of the benefits to be internal than external. If you've made Eagle, then you know what it means to take on something big and finish it. This can help you face other challenges that come up with more confidence. As for using Eagle as a resume builder, well I'd forget that. Most people outside of Scouting don't know what that means. Even though I have been dutifully putting that on my resume for over twenty years now, I don't think it has ever given me a leg up, or at least I wasn't aware of it.

 

P.S. You know, you post a lot on here for someone who isn't attuned to Scouting. I managed to get my parents to one Scouting function - my ECOH.