When helping is a waste of time.

[MattR]

As I see it, my job as SM is to motivate scouts to live the ideals of scouting. My best tool is praise after a job well done. Set the bar high and help the scout reach it. Sometimes it's a lot of help. Mostly encouraging them, keeping them focused, and sometimes being hard nosed about it. Most scouts respond. Some incredibly so.

 

A couple of scouts don't, however, and I'm wondering if I should be helping them. Or maybe there's a different way to help them? Some scouts just seem lazy and self centered and I'm not happy with the results. Example 1) Scout was enthusiastic when young but disappeared around 14 spending a lot of time playing video games. I talked to him several times and convinced him to do his Eagle project. He did a nice job. Now he's back to being a sloth and is very unreliable (the PLC's words, not mine). I think I made a mistake helping this scout. Example 2) Scout is a good kid, but will never step up, help out, or do much of anything. It took him almost 2 years from when he completed all the requirements for Eagle to have his SM conference, BOR, and COH. I think this had something to do with dad saying get Eagle before you can drive. So I don't think he ever really cared. Example 3) Good scout. Mom, dad, uncle, and grandpa want the boy to get Eagle. After several years of struggle he finally said no. I respect this kid more than the other two.

 

It seems that scouts need to find their own reason for wanting to get Eagle (and not dad's). If they have a reason then I can help them and I enjoy it but if they don't then I shouldn't even try. The question is how do you tell whether a scout really wants to get Eagle for himself, as opposed to for dad or peer pressure or whatever? If you asked the first two of these scouts they would have said they want to do it, so that won't help. Do you ask them why they want to get Eagle? I like to do the "five whys" with being selfless but maybe the five whys for being Eagle would help both of us more.

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

You sound like a really good Scoutmaster, so Im taking away from that at all, but I think the question is, should the SM be setting the scouts goals?.

 

If you ask any scout at some point if they want the Eagle, they are going to say yes. Who wouldnt? But wanting and getting are as different as only 3 to 5% of scout earn it.

 

I agree your job is to motivate the scouts to live the ideals, and their dreams. But we adults struggle not to cross the line between defining their dream and motivating their dream. Of the hundreds of scouts I worked with, my scout who had leadership skills beyond any scout I know had no ambition what so ever for Eagle. He was the great motivator of a team I have ever seen and Im sure he will be famous one day because he is that good. I learned things from him, but he left the troop at 16 because he got tired of the adults pushing the Eagle on him. I changed my style of Scoutmastering after that. I wasnt one of the adults pushing him to Eagle, but I learned a lot about motivating boys to a) seek out their dreams (b plan how to reach their dreams (c reach those dreams.

 

I can say from my experiences that if Scoutmasters would spend their time teaching boys the skills of setting goals and the skills of reaching those goals, they would have a lot more scouts earning the Eagle than just motivating them to earn it, and the Scoutmaster would never have to even mention the word Eagle.

 

So my suggestion to your post is take the word Eagle out of your post and replace it with dream. Guide a boy to have passion and then encourage that passion. Teach him the simple skills of setting a goal and the steps to reaching a goal then eventually he will not only reach the one dream, but a lot of other dreams. Likely not your dream, but as you said, your job is to motivate them to live the ideals. We motivate the ideals through their actions of seeking their dreams, whatever those dreams are

 

Find what makes these two boys tick, push them to go farther and see what happens. I think all three of you will be rewarded.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[Twocubdad]

"I shouldn't even try" isn't the attitude I would want to have as a Scoutmaster, but I do believe there is a point at which you have to back off and let the boy make up his own mind. If he wants it, he has to come get it. I wouldn't write a kid off -- I'll always leave the Scout House door open -- but that doesn't mean I need to chase them down and drag them through the door either.

 

Unfortunately, while you may take that approach, you frequently will have parents who are still pushing from that end. That's where you get boy showing up again, three months from their 18th birthday looking to finish Eagle. But that's another thread.

 

Right now I have a 15-year-old in the troop I've been with since Tigers. Currently, he is subject to disciplinary sanctions from the troop for repeated doing really stupid and remarkably unsafe things.

 

For the past two years he has made it clear by his actions that he has very little interest in Scouting. As a classic Baden-Powell "hooligan leaders" he enjoys the relative freedom Scouting allows and having a built-in audience for his shennagans. But he is openly contemptious of Scouting, including the leaders, both youth and adult. He takes no initiative to either as a leader or toward advancement. But his dad is an active ASM and really wants his boy to be an Eagle Scout.

 

Now, with the disciplinary stuff going on, the dad thinks I should be meeting with the boy regularly to encourage him and make sure he stays in Scouting.

 

No.

 

The boy is now 15. I've been having those conversations with him for years. He needs to make a choice for himself.

 

But to answer your basic question, I think you watch what the boy does, not what he (or his dad) says.

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Beavah]

Yah, MattR. Da life of a SM has its ups and downs, eh? Sometimes yeh get the paycheck, sometimes it's a long grind. Most of da really good SMs I know have written a resignation letter at least once in their careers, then stuck it out to another high, or another seven. A bit like married life, eh?

 

For those lads that you don't feel like you're reaching or helping right now, you're not. They're in a position where the other things in their life are muddling up your message or takin' more of their energy or even draggin' 'em down. Family, school, girlfriend, other stresses. Through all those things, having you and scoutin' out there as solid ground and another constant in their life does matter, eh? Yeh just might not see it quite yet. It's great when yeh can plant seeds and nurture shoots and hang around for da harvest. That's just not goin' to happen for every kid, though. Sometimes yeh have to be content planting seeds, and trusting that somewhere down the line the seed you planted will sprout, maybe be nurtured by a college professor or a kind boss, maybe even lay dormant until it blossoms for a wife and a son of his own, eh? And remembers that old SM who cared about him, and gee, I want to care about my kid the way that SM did for me.... yeh never know.

 

But I would venture one gentle piece of advice to yeh. Let go of the Eagle thing. It seems to be takin' up too much of your focus. See each boy for the young man he is, not the award that he might get. Some of the very best men are Life for Life. Many scouts who never made First Class took lessons and friendships and a love of wild places away with 'em for their whole life. Advancement, even advancement to Eagle is just a tool we use, a game we play to trick boys into becoming men.

 

Da measure of the man, and of your Scoutmastership, is not the number or the speed of your Eagles. It's the part of each fellow's mind that uses a lesson from scouting in his life, and a part of each young man's heart who cares for his faith, his country and his fellow man when others just look out for themselves.

 

Beavah

 

[MattR]

EagleDad, funny you should mention teaching scouts to set goals. Six months ago I started having scouts set goals the meeting after each COH that they want to achieve by the next COH. It's helping a lot of scouts. It's much better when it's their idea. This is one part of something that includes having older scouts create their own vision/dream/future whatever. Maybe I need to get that going, although I'm not sure how to do that.

 

I should add I'm not pushing Eagle so much as I am pushing scout spirit. It's participation, having fun, jumping in, helping out, cheerfully dealing with problems. I have scouts that aren't interested in Eagle and just want to go camping and I'm happy with that. We schedule only a few meetings a year for advancement and that's for the younger scouts. Of the scouts I mentioned, I asked them why they were in scouts and they all said to get Eagle, so that's why I encouraged them to get Eagle. I figured if they had some success then they'd get motivated to do something else. I completely missed the mark. The two that did get Eagle didn't participate, have fun, jump in, help out or do anything afterwards.

 

Twocubdad, you're right, "I shouldn't even try" is more frustration than reality. I did try with these scouts, for a long time, but it looks like I tried the wrong things. After this discussion I see two different things to try. The first is helping a scout find their scout spirit (or purpose), and the second is helping a scout do that independently of his parents. Those two are so intertwined I don't know that they can be pulled apart.

 

As Beavah says, scouts are all unique, so finding their purpose has to be a one scout at a time process. So, it's a SM conference thing? How does this work? I could really use a list of 30 questions that could help squeeze some ideas from a scout. One challenge is that teenage boys have a lot of trouble putting ideas into words. Maybe once a scout turns 14 he goes on a vision quest? Starving and sweat lodges are probably not in the guide to safe scouting.

 

I think parents are a bigger issue. I think they need training on how to be a scout parent. They need to help out, but at the same time gradually let go. Is there any such training? Twocubdad, isn't that the problem you're up against? Dad won't let go so the son is in rebellion? I've had several scouts finally decide they really did want to get Eagle about a year after dad finally gave up.

 

Thanks guys, you're helping.

 

 

 

[desertrat77]

The scout owns at least 50 percent of his fate in scouting.

 

There are times to push someone to a place called Success, and a time to say "I, as SM, have done my part to set you up for success...now you've got to do your part."

[Lisabob]

Just because you didn't get the results you were hoping for, doesn't mean what you did had no effect. Who knows, a couple of months or years (or decades) from now, one of those boys might remember his interaction with you and his additional time in the troop as something from which he learned a great deal. Failure can be constructive, too.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Scouts advance at their OWN rate, not yours. Achieving Eagle is NOT the purpose of Scouting. It is the journey that counts, and what kind of young man you end up with, not the bling pinned to his shirt.

 

Every boy is different. Not good or bad, better or worse. Just DIFFERENT. Not everyone is a "go-getter". You don't have to be a "go-getter" to earn Eagle. Your job is not to find a boy's "purpose", but to achieve the purpose of the BSA.

 

As has been discussed to death here and described often by BSA, "scout spirit" has NOTHING to do with participation in the Troop. Scout Spirit is "living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your EVERYDAY LIFE.

 

If you would rather state "I made ## of Good Eagles, the others don't count and working with them is a mistake", than "I helped open young men's eyes, and hearts, and helped them to grow into better people and citizens. I made a difference in their lives", then you do not belong in the job of Scoutmaster.

 

[RememberSchiff]

Agreed Eagle is NOT the goal of Scouting or the purpose of SM.

 

In the SM role of "delivering the promise", the purpose of the BSA, that does not have to be performed explicitly or exclusively by the SM. Delegate. Other adult leaders with different personalities, perspectives, interests, and approaches may be more successful - "adult association". A SM conference can be handled by an ASM. Very few SM's can effectively reach all their scouts, that's why we have help.

 

Partial successes count.

 

My $0.02

 

[Gunny2862]

desertrat77 says, "The scout owns at least 50 percent of his fate in scouting."

 

I am going to disagree.

 

IF there is anything resembling a decent program in place - THEN the Scout(unfortunately and/or his guardians) owns at least 90% percent of his fate in Scouting. I would actually tend to place this number higher if the If-Then statement above is true.

[jhankins]

Remember the mission statement of the boy scouts? Keep that in mind.

 

If the boy is getting the ethics and morals, we've done our job. Eagle is just a bonus. If a boy isn't advancing, of course we want to take a hard look at how we do things, but in the end, it's probably not you (as you're trying!), it's them.

[Gary_Miller]

Program, Program, and more program. Its all about the program and how its delivered to the youth.

 

Make sure there is a youth ran program.

 

Make sure the PLC is trained, and have the tools needed to do the job.

 

Make sure all the youth attend NYLT.

 

Make sure your troop is holding yearly OA elections.

 

Make sure your troop goes camping monthly.

 

Make sure your troop attends a long term summer camp. Council camp for the younger patrols. High adventure activity for the older patrols.

 

If a SM concentrates on ensuring there is a good troop program then advancement will just happen.

 

Will every youth make eagle? No.

 

However youth are more likely to make eagle if there is a outstanding program, and if they don't make eagle they at least end up with the skills needed to be outstanding adults and citizens. And thats what the whole purpose of the scouting program is all about.

 

[desertrat77]

Gunny, well said!

[Stosh]

I guess I'm of a different opinion. "The scout owns at least 50 percent of his fate in scouting." If he's learning maturity and leadership he owns 100% of his fate in scouting. No Eagle Scout has ever said to me: "My mom and I earned my Eagle," or "My dad and I earned my Eagle." If they do, it's not theirs.

 

I have always evaluated every scout that comes through my troop on only one dynamic of leadership that will insure success. That is "Caring". If the boy doesn't care, even if he gets his Eagle because he walked through all the requirements, it will be only marginal in value in the years ahead. If only the parents care, or the SM cares, why bother with the award, it is of no value except as resume fodder.

 

Give me a boy that cares and I don't worry about whether he has an Eagle pin to wear, he's going to be a successful leader.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Engineer61]

"It seems that scouts need to find their own reason for wanting to get Eagle..."

 

Precisely!

 

And to expand, if a Scout does NOT want to make Eagle, but wants to get what HE wants out of Scouting, then I feel it is the SM's responsibility to help said Scout convey that fact to the parents who are pushing it.