how would you handle this

[Scoutfish]

Lisa,

No.

I would not legally pursue a belt loop.

 

I'm saying if a scout doesn't hardly care about doing something right, doesn't necessarily do what he is supposed to and cries about not getting an advancement - and he can overturn( meaning NATIONal does) it without National even asking the troop why they denied advancement....

 

Then I'm saying that I bet I could take a den of cubs WHO ARE EXPEIENCED hunters and have taken hunter safety classes - who used real rifles that really kill people - and if council gave me a bunch of stink about shootingh a BB gun, I could show them that the scouts are overly qualified to shoot those bb guns. And based on regional and cultral policy allowed by the boysouts...council wouldn't dole out punishment or santions.

 

Would they be happy? Oh, I doubt it.

 

And the very first thing I said was I WOULDN'T DO IT! I'm talking principal and hypotheticaly.

 

I am also saying that based on two different policies concerning kids and apropriate activities...I can stand behind the reasoning and logic that led beardad to think having a BB gun event on the den level would be okay.

 

 

If anything BSA and/or a council or district should look at this and say: "Wait a minute, we better come up with something that is more clear and makes more sense!"

 

 

[nolesrule]

I'd say the BSA is very clear when it comes to shooting sports.

 

And in addition to the liability issue mentioned earlier, the BSA could also choose to terminate memberships. But then you wouldn't have to worry about the BSA's shooting sports rules or advancement anymore.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[Beavah]

How about when Council decides that you knowingly violated set policies and guidelines therefore you were negligent and they are not going to have the liability insurance policy cover you for little Johnny's injuries. That's one of the sanctions that a Council can dole out.

 

Yah, let's not start with this fiction again, eh? A scouter is trustworthy. We don't make stuff up just to try to win an argument.

 

Beardad, you do have a point. In these things there is always some sense of give-and-take between what's written as a general rule for da country and what makes the most sense in a local area. Cub scouts also aren't supposed to canoe on rivers, eh? That's a good rule for lots of places where rivers have a lot of current and such. But in areas of the flat midwest, there are slow-movin' rivers that are quite a bit safer than havin' cubs out on the local lake, especially if it's windy. Units are supposed to file national tour permits for international trips, but councils along border areas with Canada will accept local tour permits for trips into Canada.

 

So if your culture is what yeh say, then it will be straightforward and easy for you to get your council to OK a BB-gun activity for your unit and make someone available as rangemaster to assist. Just go ask 'em. Heck, there may be a Venturing crew that does hunting and can send a bunch of venturers to assist with your activity.

 

I think yeh do want to be careful, though. Workin' with a group of young boys of different experience levels with bb guns and firearms is a lot different than workin' with one lad who has had a lot of experience. Boys who are out alone or with an adult stalkin' small game behave a lot differently then when they're with a bunch of their buddies horsin' around. To my mind, you are underestimatin' the safety issues in tryin' to run this sort of thing as a den activity.

 

And I'm one of those fellows who grew up with firearms, shootin' rifles startin' age 7 or so! But that was always with dad and da uncles, not with a bunch of other 7 year olds.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Lisabob]

Again I would encourage you, Scoutfish, to talk with the risk management, shooting sports, and professional staff of your council about this. You will find that BSA policies on cub shooting sports activities are not unclear. They go beyond what is written in the "age appropriate guidelines." They are well documented. You just need to read the additional documents.

 

Nobody is going to win an appeal of a beltloop for archery or bb's on the basis you describe, because BSA policy is clearly written on these issues. Whether one likes the policy or agrees with the policy is a different issue, but a partial reading and twisting of one small subset of policies isn't going to void the much lengthier and extremely clear expectations spelled out in additional BSA policies on the matter.

 

If you are in doubt, talk to the people in your council who handle these things, and get a copy of the shooting sports guide for cub scouts. Better yet, sign up for your council or district's next range training. I promise you, you'll get bludgeoned with BSA policy on this matter so as to avoid any confusion in the future.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Scoutfish posted- "I'm saying if a scout doesn't hardly care about doing something right, doesn't necessarily do what he is supposed to and cries about not getting an advancement - and he can overturn( meaning NATIONal does) it without National even asking the troop why they denied advancement...."

 

 

Where on earth do you get this idea?

 

Making generalized statements based on rants from members of this forum, without any first hand knowledge of what you speak of is not a good way to go.

 

From the BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures booklet -

 

"All requests for appeal shall be made in writing, signed by the Scout and/or his parent(s) or guardian(s), and shall set forth in detail the reasons for requesting an appeal."

 

AND

 

"Upon initial receipt of an appeal, the district and the council advancement committee charged with hearing the initial appeal shall provide for a prompt review to determine the facts. All parties must be interviewed or written statements obtained."

 

AND

 

"A written report setting out all details of the appeal and the reasons for the committees decision shall be prepared and forwarded to the council Scout executive. A copy shall be furnished to the Scout bringing the appeal."

 

AND FINALLY -

 

"Appeals to the national Boy Scout Committee shall be processed through the local council, and the local council shall furnish copies of all pertinent documentation to the national committee, including a statement of the councils position on the matter."

 

If a BOY SCOUT (Cub Scouts do NOT have any kind of similar appeal process) advancement is appealed, and it goes all the way to the National Boy Scout Committee, you can be assured that National knows full well why the Troop, District, and Council, have all denied the advancement.

 

 

[Basementdweller]

You guys are silly

 

 

There are a number of Packs in our District that own their own BB guns and Archery equipment with full knowledge of the District Exec.

 

The DE and I had a conversation over lunch about low attendance at day camp. I was expected to increase day camp attendance. I visited all of the Packs in the district and tried to sell the day camp using fishing, bb and archery.

 

After a month of this......... I had lunch with the DE again and told him what I was told by Pack 123, 456,678 and 987. If he wants his day camp attendance up to take care of it.

 

Guess what he kept his mouth shut and none of the boys from those Packs attended.

 

 

 

 

Now am I telling you to violate any BSA policy or recommendation????? NO

 

Just stating my experiences.

 

[Scoutfish]

Lisa, your not hearing me.

I have no doubts whatsoever about BB guns and archery.

 

I am saying... I completely understand why beardad came up with the interpretation that he did - because BSA has one policy saying that they can not do this. But in a different area, they have another poicy that says things can be adjusted based on region or culture. And they specifically mentioned surfing.

 

So on the den level, I can't take my cubs swimming in a flat calm pool that has a specific depth, has only limited area and where a cub cannot be caught in a current and dragged away from shore, but it's okay to drive to the beach, let them get out their surfboards and paddle away from shore?

 

 

Add in sharks,waves, undertoe, jelly fish, stingrays and skates,and I understand completely why it's safer at the beach!

 

AGAIN: I'm not taking my cubs BB gun shooting. I'm not egging on beardad to.

 

I'm not encouraging him to either.

 

But I understand his line of thought and reasoning that came up with the idea that BB guns would be okay.

 

I never said anybody should willingly violate BSA either, You guys thought that one up.

 

But had beardad had the bb gun shoot on the den level - because he thought it was okay, and didn't know better - then I cannot think that BSA could do much other than say: "Well, this is what it really means, don't do it again!"

 

Maybe if they were real jerks, they might even make beardad hold out his hand for a harsh slapping.

 

But nowhere did I ever say I would purposly and willing violate that rule even though I knew better. And I never ever said I would sue over a belt loop. That was your thinking.

 

All I did was put myself in beardad's shoes and try to understand why he thought what he thought.

 

And the best I could come up with is that one rule says : "You can't do it!"

 

Then another rules says "Sometimes , you are allowed to do things you are not allowed to do, because everybody who lives where you live, does it already."

 

Now why is it so hard to understand why somebody wouldn't understand that?

 

And no! I am not taking my den surfing next week either!

[zippyboro]

You can rationalize it all you want, but it comes down to common sense and liability issues. BSA does not want to let den leaders make judgement calls in terms of readiness and skill levels of cubs with firearms. Yes, there may be packs that look the other way, but they are clearly not supposed to.

[ScoutNut]

Because in the case of shooting sports there is no confusing message.

 

In order to understand something you need to read the ENTIRE document. Not just take one line and make up your own policies, rules, or guidelines.

 

While the Age-Appropriate Guidelines do state that - "Because of the varying development rates among youth, these activity guidelines are flexible and should not be perceived as requirements or rules."

 

However, it also states, very clearly, in the same document under Archery and BB's - "Council/District Outdoor Programs Only" for all Cub Scouts. This is the same for canoeing, motor boating, rafting, rowing, and sailing. That does not seem to allow for any kind of waffling under regional differences.

 

The Age Appropriate Guidelines also state that the policies and procedures in the Guide to Safe Scouting must be followed.

 

Guide to Safe Scouting - Cub Scouting Standards for Guns and Firearms - in BOLD TYPEFACE -

 

"Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or to council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level."

 

There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about that.

 

By the way - The reference to "surfing" in the Age Appropriate Guidelines says nothing about CUB Scouts is states -

 

"On the West Coast and Gulf Coast, surfing may be appropriate for BOY Scouts."

 

There are also quite a lot of rules and regulations in the Guide to Safe Scouting that must be followed for ANY kind of swimming, or non-swimming, aquatic activity.

 

To generalize, make sweeping, broad, unrealistic examples, and then declare that it is OK to do what you want, and go against BSA policy first, and ask "forgiveness" later does a BIG disservice to the program, and encourages any new Scout families and leaders who might be reading your comments that this is the way to do things.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Scoutfish, in general I tend to fall a little more on the side of using good judgement and less on explicitly mindlessly following the rules. But that's not a blanket statement indicating that there's no purpose to the rules.

 

Can you ignore the rules? Yes. Should you ignore the rules? Well, not as a matter of course. There are lots of reasons to follow the rules, just as there are a variety of reasons why you might want to bend them. The reasons in favor of the rules can get magnified in situations like bb-gun shooting.

 

BasementDweller says that he has packs that have archery and bb-guns with the knowledge of the DE. So go ahead and ask your DE, and maybe he'll give you permission, too.

 

Our pack wanted to do bb-guns and archery at a pack campout. The council let us use their range, gave us the training, and lent us the bb-guns and bows and arrows. Was this bending the rule? Maybe. It didn't seem like it was officially a "Council/District outdoor program", but we ran it by the same rules, with the council's knowledge.

 

So just think about it a little bit. You have indicated that you often want straightforward answers to your questions. Ok, fair enough. You asked what the policy is, and it's clear. So you can choose to follow it or not. Now, when you ask if you can ignore a policy, that's just not going to have a simple answer. Well, the simple answer is yes, you can ignore the policy, but the consequences of ignoring the policy can be much more complex.

 

Other people can read the policy, too. What do you tell them if they ask why you aren't following it? If your Scouts get bb-loops at a pack meeting, will other den leaders ask about how you managed that, and be upset at you for setting up expectations with their own kids that they can go shoot BB-guns? How do you actually intend to maintain complete control of the range? What would happen if someone did get hurt? What would you be able to say about what safety rules you were following?

 

Your basic question appears to be whether we agree that you could overturn sanctions. While I think sanctions are unlikely, I do not agree that you could overturn them. Who are you appealing to? It's not a court of law. What kind of sanctions do you think you are appealing? I don't think council is going to swoop in and repossess belt loops from a bunch of Cub Scouts, so that's not going to be topic for repealing sanctions. If your membership got revoked, good luck in arguing that you should have it back.

 

If you're so confident that your local culture overrides the "only at council/district events" rule, then go ask the council and get them to agree.

 

I don't think that Policy A and Policy B are really in conflict here. Policy A says you might want to adapt the "age appropriate guidelines" to your locality. Policy B (which is not an "age appropriate guideline") is that packs/dens can't do shooting events on their own.

 

There is another similar statement in the Guide to Safe Scouting, in the aquatics section: Ultimately, each responsible adult leader must personally decide if he or she understands the risk factors associated with the activity and is sufficiently experienced and well-informed to make the rational decisions expected of a qualified supervisor.

 

So is there some flexibility? Yes. But there's a big difference between "some flexibility" and "anything goes."

[bear dad]

thanks for the help and suggestions everyone.Not sure how the BB gun shooting came up, think I asked about archery. Yes I know that bb guns and archery are classified shooting sports therefore they in same heading. Know now they are suppose to be done at certain places. don't plan on doing a den meeting with these. Only asked why and if I could , did not want belt loops for this just a fun thing to do for one our den meetings.

 

I more put out that we can't camp as a den, yes know that is the rule and probably going to lose a boy over this and other things as he was expecting to do these things some with our den, least that was the ideal I got from father as he was stating what the former DE told the boys at the round up at school, that they can do these things, but probably never told boys/ parents they can do these things under certain conditions, i.e. day camp, etc..

 

All I am trying to do is make it fun and interesting for boys, yes have hikes in place and other things, but when you tell or leave a boy to believe he can do something and don't tell him that things have to be done first, and then just tell him you can't, what do you think will happen?

 

I do want to thank all of the help and advice.

[Scoutfish]

Here's the probelm: Some of you know policy soo damn well,it's pouring out your ears. And this pouring out obstructs you hearing! LOL!

 

Look, pl;ease read slowly and carefully:

 

I AM NOT TRYING TO GET MY DEN TO USE A BB GUN! I have NO PLANS to use bb guns on the den level.

 

I AM NOT ARGUING with BSA abouit policy.

 

Is that much clear so far?

 

 

WHat I have said is....... Due to the wording of the do different rules...... I UNDERSTAND why SOMEBODY ELSE misunderstood them.

 

You get me? I am not rtying to have a BB gun shoot. I'm not trying to have an archery shoot. I'm not trying to shoot anything!

 

All I did was try to put myself in somebody elses shoes before I made a judgement about them or their situation. .

 

Any of you ever try that?

 

Bear dad didn't quite understand the issue about den camping . Some how archery came up. Then everybody started spoutingt about how bear dad should real rule # such and such out of book title whatever. But that was pretty much pointless because not a single one of you ( well most of you) didn't bother to take in the fact that bear dad DID READ THE RULES!

 

 

But as I pointed out... the rules can be misleading. I suppose if you have been scouting for a bunch of years..you can name off rules,policies, sub rules and whatnot in your sleep.

 

But if you are not a seasoned scout/cub leader...then alot of these rules, policies and such sound like they go in circle and some just don't make sense,...YET!

 

The funny thing is...somebody comes to you for advice....you start spouting policy - without actually finding out what the question really was about. Such in case, the question was about BSA policy on den camping. The question was froma guy who already read the rule and didn't understand BSA's doublespeak!

 

So...without meaning any personal offense to anybody in particular or general.....I'm gonna assume the next person who qoutes to me BSA policy on shooting sports or dens is just too stupid to be giving anybody advice!

[ScoutNut]

Bear Dad, You have stated that you don't think that anything is going to make this dad and his son happy.

 

If my son had joined up with the perception that he would be going camping right away, and then found out it was not so, my son might be a bit upset, yes. However, if I, as his parent, found out that the reasons that camping would not be done instantly was because 1) The Pack was brand new and needed some time to sort out start-up issues, including financial issues, 2) BSA safety policies had to be met first, and 3) the Pack needed (as part of the safety policies) someone trained to plan/run campouts, I would be understanding and explain to my son that he would get to camp soon, and to enjoy the rest of the program in the meantime. If we were a family who enjoyed the outdoors, had experience camping, and had our own equipment, I would most likely take the family on a campout, or two, and brush up son on camping skills, while waiting for the Pack to get things going. If I was REALLY interested in getting my son out camping, I would volunteer to take the BALOO training myself, as soon as possible, to insure that my son could go camping with the Scouts as soon as possible.

 

It sounds to me like this family of yours is simply looking for an excuse to leave Scouting, and the camping thing is going to be their excuse.

 

That happens sometimes. Not a whole lot you can do about it. Just continue to make sure that the boys in your den get the best program you can give them, and have fun.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

The very first mention of BB gun was this from Beavah:

 

 

The very first mention of Archery was this from bear dad:

 

 

 

Then bear dad asked:

 

Turn out so far that all of those "some" were the very experienced Scoutleaders.

The same ones who somehow decided trhat bead dad was going to hold an illegal bb gun shoot.

 

Then I started saying I too understood why bear dad was getting mixed messages.

Now you guys think I plan to have some sort of bb gun tea party demonstration in front of BSA or something?

 

Wow, with the excepton of a few people.. kinda makes me scared to ask anything in here because I might ask about what everybody's favorite camping recipe is and somehow end up getting blasted for letting cubs play with hand torches crawl through fire embers!

[bear dad]

Scout Nut,

Thanks for the advice, as i talked to boys dad, he stated boy was not really interested but when the camping, and such was talked about thought it would be cool. So yes the boy was mislead to a point, and I did talk to father about it and he said he was going to talk to son, maybe it might change his mind.This boy likes to camp and does with his dad.

You mentioned something that nobody in our pack except me is doing, TRAINING! I am the only member who has signed up to take Baloo, which don't think anyone even knows what it is, but yet none is even taking a effort in getting info about these types of things. I am also planning on taking WELOT training within the next couple of months, which I am not sure if our webelos DL has even taken yet?

 

So yes all the things you mentioned earlier, training, finaces, etc.. before things get done is reason lot things haven't got done. thanks for your help.

 

 

Scout Fish,

Appericate your responses and seeing where i was coming from, think if you are new, like me you could interpet the rules wrongly. Think sometimes people over look these things, thanks for the help, bear dad