how would you handle this

[AKdenldr]

Bear Dad,

 

First off, thanks for all you are doing for the boys. I can see by the number of posts that you are really working hard to learn. Setting up a pack is made much harder than it needs to be. Some ideas I have for you:

 

1. Boys do leave the program, don't take it personally, they have a lot activities to choose from. Spend 90 percent of your efforts on the boys who are participating and likely to continue, not the other way around.

 

2. Enlist boy's dad for help. Jump on his offer to help with tools. See if they will host a meeting at their house (this often cements the boy's relationship to the other boys to be the host for a meeting.)

 

3. Work a bit on team building with the boys (non-competative games.)

 

4. Ask boys dad to help coordinate earning the hiking or map and compass beltloop, or LNT awards.

 

5. Are you signed up for camp? If not, you should book a date now.

 

6. Go to the next roundtable, stand up introduce yourself. Say you have a Bear den and have no relationships with a troop. Ask for some handy scouts to come and teach an outdoor skill and tell about scouting and camp. (I hope you'll have a flood of offers.)

 

7. If you haven't done the wittling chip, do it soon.

 

8. "Boring" can be kid code word for many other things. (Like perhaps, I don't really fit in, yet, with the other guys.)

 

9. On occassion we do invite families and kids that we know from scouting to go do something that is a "non-scouting event". Nuf said.

 

10. Around here the trainers are all volunteers, not professional scouting staff. I would get hold of them to see if they can help you early.

 

11. I agree that the recruitment drive can create lots of unmet expectations.

 

12. If boy does quit coming, list him as inactive, and keep inviting him back for camp, camping, and the summer outdoor activities.

 

13. If you are using the denner system, have the denner call everyone the day before an event to remind them of the meeting / event. (This is really about team building and the boys taking

responsibility for their activity.)

 

Best of luck,

[bear dad]

Thanks everyone appericate the help. Let say as far as training, think I have took all the online courses I can take I think?

We have been to roundtable a couple of times enjoy it meet some nice folks there and getting some networking started. the last one was cancelled, plan on attending next one.

 

Would like to ask these 2 questions please,

as far as the archery question regarding my den,

I am NOT looking for belt loops for the boys just having fun in backyard thing, by the earlier post this not allowed also.

When people qoute rule #'s as to BSA policy where can one get a copy?

 

 

Please forgive me but getting mixed messages as some say BEND RULES , some say Don't,

all I am trying to do is my best, which as it seems isn't good enough to some.

Thanks to one all.

[Lisabob]

bear dad,

 

1. The BSA has strict rules about shooting sports and cub scouts. There's a booklet called something like "Shooting Sports Guide" that you can ask about when you do your next cub training, or that you may be able to get by asking for it at your council scout shop. I don't recall what it cost, or if you could buy it. I got mine back when I was a cub leader by doing Cub Scout Range Master training. (I ran the archery range at cub day camp. Best job in camp!)

 

More useful to you is probably the Cub Scouts Academics and Sports Program Guide, which lists all the requirements for all the beltloops and pins. If you're going to spend $10 on a book of rules, I'd recommend this one instead. (I don't know what it actually costs anymore - been a few years since I last bought one - and the basic info can also be found online in various places for free. Here's a link to the material from that book, from a reputable and usually up-to-date site: http://www.usscouts.org/advance/CubScout/a-sindex.asp )

 

The info given to you by NE-IV-88 Beaver is correct though; you are not supposed to do archery or bb guns in your back yard as a cub event, beltloop or no.

 

2. About the interpretations and "bending" the rules. Well this is where you get a lot of different opinions when you post to the web. To be honest though, I think Beavah's comment really wasn't asking you to BEND the rules. I think he was asking you to think more about how to take more control while staying within the rules. As in, don't wait for training to come to you - go ask for it, or go find a BALOO person from another nearby pack who will camp with you while you wait for the next BALOO training. Of course, it is hard to know what to ask for if you aren't aware of what exists "out there." That's where I, personally, have found this forum to be a huge help. It gives me a sense of what was possible and then I can pick the things I want to try to accomplish locally.

 

By the way, AKdenldr gave you some good ideas!

 

 

[bear dad]

Lisa Bob,

 

thanks for the help and suggestions, hopefully all will work out? Thats why I ask questions, like this forum site lot of useful suggestions.Thanks

[Greaves]

the belt loop requirements are also posted on the BSA website:

 

http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/awards/adults/sanda.aspx

 

 

[bear dad]

Lisa BOb,

 

Concepts and Guidelines

The Cub Scout Academics and Sports program is based on the following concepts and guidelines

Each Tiger Cub, Cub Scout, and Webelos Scout will be presented with the appropriate recognition item for completing the requirements, whether he does so as an individual Scout, with his family, with his den or pack, or in his school or community

 

and what Greaves sent a link to

 

Academics and Sports Belt Loops

You earn a belt loop to wear with your uniform when you complete three specific requirements for each Academics or Sports activity. You can take part in three ways: (1) by yourself or with your family, (2) in your den or pack, or (3) in school.

 

 

Okay maybe I am reading this wrong to me I can let my den do archery at 1 a den meeting. Although I am not wanting to be used for belt loops, just something cool for boys to due.

By these statements is okay, can you explain if it is not? thanks

[Beavah]

Yah, what Lisabob said.

 

It's not about bendin' rules, but about understanding 'em and people's roles and resources.

 

Your district training team really would/should come out and do a special Baloo training for folks in your unit. It's usually not hard to have a Baloo person from another unit or from da district join you; you just have to ask. And the council can choose to authorize a trip to its own property where the camp ranger is available for support even if yeh don't have a Baloo person present. And lots of other stuff is possible, too! Yeh have to ask, but both councils and other scouters are helpful folks, eh? We err on the side of helpin' your program, not on sayin' "NO!"

 

As to shootin' sports, the worry is that handlin' arrows and BB guns safely in a group environment takes some trainin' and skill. Handlin' arrows and BB guns with young kids in a group environment takes some real skill and practice. Not somethin' that's a great idea for anybody to do in their back yard, even if they themselves are good archers or shooters. Kids do the darndest things sometimes, even when yeh told 'em not to. So do untrained parents.

 

But yeh can do that campout at your council camp and ask someone from your district or council to come serve as rangemaster. Some districts/councils have arrangements with other community organizations like the local sportsman's club. If not, they can make arrangements. Councils get to decide what a council activity is, eh? And we're here to serve your program needs.

 

So when your program needs somethin', it's like votin' in Chicago, eh? Ask early and often! There's almost always a helpful soul who can set you up.

 

After all, we gave you our word. "On our honor, we will do our best... to help other people at all times."

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob]

bear dad,

 

I no longer have a copy of the belt loop book handy, but my recollection was that there was an asterisk for the bb and archery loops that said they could only be earned at council or district events.

 

Beyond the belt loops, the Shooting Sports guide puts restrictions more generally on cubs doing bb or archery. Again, it has been a couple of years since I had the books, but I think if you called your council office and inquired, they'd tell you the same thing. The general rules about being able to earn most belt loops with family or school or den/pack not withstanding, shooting sports are something different. I can't quote chapter and verse any more because I no longer have the books, but I am 99.99% sure that this is one rule that remains in effect today in cub scouting. Again, a good reason to get active in your local leader resource network (like Round Table), where you'll find people in your area who can show you the book and clarify for you the circumstances under which you can do shooting sports with cubs in your council.

 

This is not a rule that I, personally, would bend, even though there are times when it might seem a little bit over the top. But I strongly encourage you to call your council, ask for the name and contact info of whoever does rangemaster training for cub events in your area, and call him or her to get the full story.

[ScoutNut]

bear dad - The link from Greaves, which you quoted from, also includes the following -

 

" * Loops and pins for archery and BB-gun shooting can be earned only in day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or at council activities where there is properly trained supervision, and all guidelines for BSA shooting sports are implemented. Archery and BB-gun shooting belt loops and pins cannot be earned at the pack, den, or individual level. Requirements therefore are not included."

 

 

This states, quite clearly, that archery and BB's are considered SHOOTING SPORTS, and not something to be done at the PACK, DEN, or INDIVIDUAL level.

 

So, belt loops or not, NO it is NOT OK to do any kind of archery, or BB's at a den meeting.

 

There are plenty of fun, outdoor and indoor, things you can do with your Scouts that do not go against BSA rules or policies.

 

Speaking of BSA policies - about that ride on your boat you are planning, The BSA Guide to Safe Scouting, Aquatics Safety, under Safety Afloat, states -

 

"Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council or district events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions)."

 

A good thing to do, before you start planning den, or Pack activities, is to check out the Guide to Safe Scouting. BSA has an online version at their National web site -

 

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/HealthandSafety/GSS.aspx

 

Then contact your council to see if they have any additional requirements, or rules, about the activity you would like to plan.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Sorry - Double post!(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

[John-in-KC]

Like so many others, thank you for wanting to give a quality program to your den and pack.

 

From the scouting.org website, here's a host of program support materials:

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/resources/CubScoutOutdoorProgramGuidelines.aspx

 

Here's the trick you need to learn: There are BOUGHTEN program materials (you pay) and there are BIN ITEM program materials (they're free). The difference is the stock number: A dash, such as 13-550, means the item is free. 13-550, as NE-VI-Beaver pointed out, is Shooting Sports for Cub Scouting.

 

As I understand it, almost all the BSA literature in the bin item system is now in pdf format. If there is something you want, send an email or call your friendly DE. He can get to all of it, and then shoot you a copy.

 

Hope this helps.

[Scoutfish]

I have a question. Now, what I have is actually pulled from AGE APPROPRIATE GUIDLINES....but I have to point out that following their line of thought... BB Guns could/should be okay on the den level. No, I'm not planning on doing BB guns (again! Ooops!) , just saying I could use the logic BSA used and use it for BB Guns.

 

 

 

[nolesrule]

It's not in conflict. It means that in the cases of shooting sports and waterfront activities, the BSA has placed additional restrictions beyond just age appropriate guidelines and cultural norms.

 

Here in Florida, it's "culturally normal" for people to go out on a boat with their families on the rivers, bays, Gulf or Atlantic. But the BSA doesn't allow that as a den or pack activity either.

 

Certain activities can only be done at the Cub level at specified district/council events within specified conditions under the supervision of those who have specific certifications recognized by the BSA.

 

 

"I'm with bear dad on this issue. With competant supervision... I almost think you would have a better shot at overturning any sanctions that BSA,Council, or distric doled out( if they decided to ) than a scout can overturn any advancement denial."

 

You sure about that?(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

"I'm with bear dad on this issue. With competant supervision... I almost think you would have a better shot at overturning any sanctions that BSA,Council, or distric doled out( if they decided to ) than a scout can overturn any advancement denial."

 

How about when Council decides that you knowingly violated set policies and guidelines therefore you were negligent and they are not going to have the liability insurance policy cover you for little Johnny's injuries. That's one of the sanctions that a Council can dole out.

[Lisabob]

Oh now come on. You want to (hypothetically) pursue this matter as an advancement denial? Over a belt loop? I don't think that makes a lot of sense. You'd end up burning an awful lot of bridges over something, and you'd probably still lose.

 

If you want perfect internal consistency, BSA documents are not going to please you. But the policy on shooting sports for cubs is rather clear. If you are in doubt about it, talk to your council's risk management folks, and to your DE, and to your district or council shooting sports folks. You just won't win on this, no matter how "right" you might feel.