When is enough, enough?

[desertrat77]

Lisabob, I think Eagle 732 said it best when he advised his rowdies to pursue their scout careers elsewhere.

 

We spend alot of time these days, in classrooms, scouting, and sports, talking to troubled youngsters that ruin everyone's experience, hoping that the talk and the 5th/25th/555th "second" chance will get them to change their behavior.

 

Only concrete consequences, tied to substantiated poor behavior, will get their attention.

 

Evmori is right, adults should handle this...one more time and they are history. Otherwise, who is going to speak up for the scouts who are living up the oath and law?

[Lisabob]

I really appreciate your inputs. Yes, these are brothers (parents are not active as adult leaders, which is fine) and in the past, they've had protection from the committee chair. CC has recently changed. And yes, this is a troop where adults often step in and play roles that probably belong to the boys (we have some "world's oldest SPLs and PLs in the group).

 

My concern is not too much in how the youth will handle the matter - most of the more active youth leaders in the troop have clearly stated that they have problems with these two boys. My son, who is SPL, cannot stand them and is willing (maybe too willing?) to lead the way here.

 

My concerns, I suppose, are two-fold. First, I know that I am biased against these two boys because of their past behavior, which has sometimes been directed at my son. Grrr. I don't sit on their boards of review for this reason, and they don't typically seek me out as a MBC (though I'd try my best to be totally fair, if they did). I also know my son is biased against them because of past run-ins. So, although I am not involved with the PLC (I'm a committee member, and this year, a nominal one most of the time - trying to avoid impinging on SPL son's activity), when my son asks advice or uses me as a sounding board, I want to be careful I'm not letting my personal dislike of these boys color my responses too much.

 

Second, we have a lot of adults who just about bend over backward to avoid conflict, and who aren't usually willing to stand up and say much. I'm not sure how we get around this, at the committee and SM/ASM level, and in the past I have sort of gotten disgusted with the whole deal, but I think it is probably time to try again.

 

I appreciate your input thus far. I think the point that we have an active, large, vocal, group of boys who are leaders and good scouts expressing discontent, vs. two boys who are bullies and not behaving as good scouts, is a good one to start with.

 

Two other questions, from those who suggest having the PLC weigh in. The two boys in question are part of the PLC. Awkward... How would you coach your SPL to guide the PLC through that? Also, is it appropriate for the SPL to work out a range of options with the SM? Or do you feel that the SM should (with the CC's input) decide what ought to happen? Basically, how much weight should the SPL's view hold here?

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>Evmori is right, adults should handle this...one more time and they are history. Otherwise, who is going to speak up for the scouts who are living up the oath and law?

[Eagle92]

Lisa,

Yep part of the problem IMHO is that the adults have been running things. They haven't allowed the youth to correct problems, and now the trouble makers are part of the PLC, which should be the ones handling things at first.

 

Since they are PLC members, then the SPL needs to have a chat with the SM abotu this ASAP since he is having problems with them. I am assuming he has tried to discuss the problem with them and they are ignoring him.

 

Yep SM and committee need to jump in ASAP.

[Beavah]

Yah, I think da answer in all these cases is clear, eh?

 

At the point when the behavior of a boy is causing other boys to leave scouting, it's time to fish or cut bait.

 

I'm with Eagledad. This is a problem that the lads could have dealt with youth-to-youth on the PLC, but now it's a problem that the adults created and have ownership of. So the boys are doin' their job properly - they're pushing the adults to man up and deal with the issue.

 

Every troop needs someone who can be "the heavy." If yeh don't have any adults who can manage that, or who are a strong enough example of principled stances that the boys can follow their example, then inevitably yeh have bullies.

 

Where do yeh go from here?

 

If your son and his friends want to push it, they go to the committee as a group and say "It's them or us." Here are the resignations of the whole rest of the PLC that we will be forwarding to the CO and the district, detailing the reasons and your lack of action as adults. Yeh lose 2 boys or you lose 10 and have to deal with the CO and district. Facing 'em with a choice between two conflicts is often the only way to get the adults who conflict-avoid-at-all-costs to actually act, and even that doesn't work most of the time.

 

Otherwise, yeh need to find a man or woman of principle somewhere in your unit (or import one in the person of a Commish or COR/IH). The kids have done their part to set it up, now yeh need some adult with some gumption to see it through. If it's the SM, he/she might see it through just workin' with the boys on the PLC. If it's the CC, he or she might see it through the way Eagledad describes, by puttin' burdens on the parents. If it's the COR/IH, he or she would see it through by being the "heavy" who removed the boys. If it's the UC, he or she might tell the committee that it's their responsibility to deal firmly with bullying and hazing or resign the committee.

 

But yeh need somebody somewhere to take some adult-like responsibility and ownership to match the character the boys are showin'.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[Mafaking]

 

This has nothing to do with scouts PLC or SM, at this point.

 

The advise should be directed towards getting the committee to take the most stringent action possible. And the persuasive context someone like Lisabob can use to get reluctant and passive adults to take action against known trouble makers.

 

Start off with a motion/proposal to resend their membership in the unit. Then keep backing off until the most severe action has a plurality. Don't seek complete conscience you will never get it, just 50% plus 1. Then volunteer to approach the CO about the matter. Dismiss the notion of prior issues and known bias. If this is well known then why hide it?

 

 

 

 

[desertrat77]

In an ideal situation, the boys could have dealt with it...but this isn't ideal, and I don't think the boys had a chance from day 1 to deal with it.

 

The key fact is the rowdies and their parents have acted this way since their cub scout days. The rowdies were going to do it their way in the troop from the minute they crossed over from Webelos. They've never dealt with any consequences that stuck, and it seems to me troop leadership probably would not have done anything even if the PLC spoke up in the early days.

 

Process aside, if there is even the beginning of a pattern of abusive/bully behavior, I'm not waiting till the scouts work up the courage to do something about it. I'm going to act immediately.

 

There are issues that are best solved by the scouts, true...it gives them a chance to learn leadership. It's a safe environment to fail, if you will. But abusive behavior? Zero tolerance. The scouts, and their parents, are depending on us as scouters to provide a safe, postive scouting experience. Coddling rowdies, or letting bully behavior go unchecked in the hopes that the victims will take the first step is frankly a failure of adult leadership, in a scout setting or elsewhere.

 

If you suspect this is a hobby horse for me, guilty as charged. As a military brat, I was in a scout troop as a tenderfoot where the SM's son was not only a bully, but also the PL of the newbies. Everyone knew this PL was a bully but no one did jack about it. Even if we did figure out what to do, who would back our play? No one. And it made for a very long year in scouting till we moved again. Hence my position that waiting for the victims to make the first move regarding a bully may be fine in theory, but often impractical.

[Stosh]

If my memory is correct, it was Eleanor Roosevelt that said one is a victim only if one allows themselves to be. As a SM I don't let the boys run rough shod over the troop even though they are boy-led. There is a certain amount of decorum of decency that is required for the boys to operate and show leadership in an environment conducive to it. Yes, difficult times require extra leadership requirements, but a long standing pattern of disruptive behavior that is beyond the skills of boys at that age is not tolerated.

 

It is okay for the boy to deal with another boy that has dropped the ball on some expectation, but to deal with malicious and destructive behaviors is not necessary. Obviously from the discussion so far there are many adults that don't seem to have the skill sets to deal with it, let alone expect the boys to have them.

 

All boys in the troop deserve a safe and constructive atmosphere where they are allowed to learn the skills of everyday life. If the adults don't allow for that, then whatever one is trying to teach the boys is a waste of time.

 

I've had my share of disrupters and bullies over the years. They all have had the opportunity to change, but if they don't they're gone. One can't allow the destruction of a whole troop just because of the behavior of one or two in the group. I believe we are responsible to provide leadership development for as many of the boys as we can, but it isn't going to happen for all the boys. Some just aren't going to be successful, not because they don't have the skills, but because they don't have the will/attitude to make it happen for themselves.

 

Obviously the majority of these boys that are disruptive are not just this way at Scouts, it means they have found their troop an environment that allows for their misbehavior and capitalize on it. When this happens, we allow ourselves to become victims.

 

More than once I have told a boy they may get away with such behavior at home or at school, but not here. I suggest they save their disruptive behavior for when they are at home or at school, because it isn't going to be tolerated in the troop. About 90% of the time that works for the boys. It reminds me of the old dynamic that when we are at home we go by home rules, when we are at grandma's we go by grandma's rules. If one thinks they are going to get away with things at home like they did at grandma's, guess again. When in Rome, do as the Romans. When you are at scouts, we operate under the Scout Oath and Law. If one wishes to advance, they may wish to consider doing the same thing elsewhere, too.

 

With rules and expectations clearly defined, most boys will take them under consideration and toe the line. If they don't, they will understand that the problem arises from themselves and can't blame others who may wish to allow it and become victims.

 

Any psychologist will tell you that unless the person wishes to change, they won't no matter how much counseling they get.

 

Stosh

[desertrat77]

Stosh, well said and thanks....

[Eagledad]

>>Hence my position that waiting for the victims to make the first move regarding a bully may be fine in theory, but often impractical.

[desertrat77]

Barry, I respect your point of view and am glad you teach a class on the subject...but frankly, I think I'm in the best position to decide 35 years after the fact whether I gave something a chance or not.

 

In my case, we tenderfoot scouts in the newbie patrol didn't have the avenues to pursue relief from the bully PL. There was no committee. No SPL or other senior scouts. One ASM who was hit/miss because of school. The SM was the bully's dad, who knew and condoned his son's behavior.

 

At the time, I think we scouts viewed the situation as unsat, but we were all small fry (sixth grade) and the bully was in high school. So we just pressed on because we liked to camp and such. Granted, advancement was zero. We were young and just didn't know any better, so we put up with a bunch of garbage. But we hung in there, I'll give us tenderfeet that much credit, retroactively!

 

So in a mature, properly functioning troop, I can see your model working. But as an adult, I'm going to assess the situation, and if the bully is a known quantity, and his victims too young to figure out things on their own, I'm stepping in and will make no apologies for it.

 

Yes, the young ones need to learn how to handle difficult situations. If it's a standard squabble between scouts, they should learn to handle these things without an adult stepping in every second. But a bona fide bully? You have to get their attention early, and if they can't toe the line, they need to be asked to leave.

[Lisabob]

There's such an issue of balance in the situation you describe, desertrat. On one hand we do not want to encourage or condone helicopter parent behavior, with adults swooping in to "save" kids from situations of their own making at every turn.

 

With younger scouts and sometimes with older scouts who are only children, I see this from time to time. Issues arise where the kid is being a real pill, but maybe they don't have older siblings (or any siblings) at home who have ever put them in their place a bit before. In cub scouts, they're mostly associating with their age-mates as equals, and anyway it isn't usually more than an hour a week, under close adult supervision. Boy scouts is often the first time they're brought up short by the fact that their own behavior is causing a negative response from other kids.

 

On the other hand, we don't want to turn a blind eye to bullying and bad behavior, especially from older kids directed at the weaker/younger kids. I agree that it is a little much to wait around for the victim to figure it out in such a case and demand that the situation be addressed. In this scenario it is easy to end up with a "Lord of the Flies" troop. We have a responsibility to set up an environment where that sort of bullying is not the norm. Otherwise, why would younger/weaker/marginalized kids ever want to be part of the troop in the first place.

 

Going back to my original situation, I've asked the committee chair and SM to bring the matter to the committee for discussion. I've pointed out that we seem to have a situation where the majority of our younger leaders and some of our older leaders are united in their distaste for how the troop has handled these bullies. I've attempted to frame it as a question of whether youth can trust the adults to mean what we say about not tolerating bad behavior and about using the oath & law as our guidelines. I'll let you all know what happens, in general terms.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

There are two distinct and different issues here:

1)Bullying and what can be done?

 

2) How bad have adults screwed up the system and how to fix it.

 

In the first case:

"Misbehavior by a single youth in a scouting unit may constitute a threat to the safety of the individula who misbehaives as well as to the safety of other unit members. Such misbehavior constitutes an unreasonable burden on a scout unit abd CONNOT BE IGNORED."

 

"If confronted by threats of violence or OTHER forms of bullying from other youth members, scouts should seek help from their unit leaders or PARENTS."

 

-Rules and Regulations of

the Boy Scouts of America

 

Sound like you have all the official and enforcement you need, if you decide to use it, If the parents of the boys, or the boys in question challenge it, then in effect, they are challenging the BSA itself.

 

In the second case, if some adults had not interfeared to begin with, or had the structure and chain of command as well as authority of who can handle what was properly followed and taught to the boys, this might never have progressed this far.

The only thing that can really be done now is for the adults to stand up, grow a backbone and handle this situation. One it is handled and taken care of, there needs to be an immediate revamp of how things are done. Bring these boys in and tell them hoew and why thing are SUPPOSED to be done. Teach them what the procedures are, what the chain of command is, and who takes care of what.

Teach them that this is their troop. They run it, they live it, they enforce it. Parents are just a "watching from back here" safety net and guard against the occasional lack of sound judgement!

 

It's gonna be tough. No doubt about it. But it's gona have to be done.

[Lisabob]

You know Scoutfish, it is not that I disagree with the general idea of what you've written, but

1) as someone who is neither the Scoutmaster nor the Committee Chair, and

2) as someone who is usually in the minority viewpoint on matters like these, and

3) in a troop where most of the adult leaders have been around for much longer than I have (even though my son is ending his 5th year in the troop) and are accustomed to certain ways of running things, and

4) in a situation where other local troops are really not much different, my son isn't interested in changing troops, and starting our own troop isn't on the horizon,

 

I have to tell you that what you've written isn't especially realistic.

 

It is not a question of finding something in the BSA literature. It is a question of whether other, generally well-meaning, adult leaders can be convinced to act. What I've discovered, to my frustration many times, is that a lot of adults will put up with all sorts of crap if it means avoiding conflict and confrontation. When those are the people in charge, it can be quite a challenge to effect change in a group. This is something I personally find very hard to deal with because it is not my style at all, which is why I've posted here looking for input. If it were up to me alone, I'd have dealt with the issue a looonnnggg time ago. In fact in cub scouting when it was up to me, I did deal with these same boys and their parents in no uncertain terms. I have plenty of backbone, thanks.

 

But I am not in charge in my son's boy scout troop. I am one voice among many. I cannot simply impose my will, even if I want to. And that's probably the case for a lot of people who post here, maybe even more so in boy scouting than is the case in cub scouting.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

[evmori]

Actually, Lisa, what Scoutfish posted is very realistic. It just might no seem practical to you.

 

The behavior you mentioned needs to be stopped and it is up to the adults to stop it. This is way past letting the PLC handle it.

 

Time for a new beginning.