When is enough, enough?

[Lisabob]

There are a couple of boys in my son's troop who are known to be problems. They can be very manipulative, can be bullies, frequently show poor judgment and lack of leadership, and one of them has, over the years, driven other scouts away with his language and behavior. (We know this because former scouts, and their parents, have told us - after the fact) They both have long histories of getting away with things. They've both caused problems at each of the last two summer camps. The troop's adult leadership has not responded very forcefully in many past incidents (much to my annoyance). The boys are under a great deal of pressure from home to stay in scouting and "make Eagle" (which they probably will, because they're both Life scouts now - a problem for a different thread though, please). The parents are not easy people to deal with, either. I have known these people since the kids were in 1st and 2nd grade - they are in high school now. As a den leader I was often on the receiving end of their parents' wrath so I understand why many conflict-avoiding adults just go along to get along with them, although I don't often agree.

 

We now have a core group of other boys in the troop who have just had enough of this. They complained to the SM after a somewhat minor incident at a recent event (one of the boys allegedly went through someone's bag, took, and ate their stash of food - this was a lock-in event where the kids often bring junk food with them, not a camp out). The complaining boys want these two boys kicked out of the troop.

 

I was not there and was not directly privy to the conversation so I am aware that there may be more to it, but from what I am told by my SPL son, the SM's response was that the complaining boys are holding a lot of grudges from past problems (from before he was SM), and that a person shouldn't be kicked out because he ate someone's chips. The complaining boys evidently gave him a laundry list of all the stuff these two boys have done/gotten away with in the past (many of which adults didn't know about at the time they occurred, or were glossed over at the time, and are more serious than taking chips - physical attacks, breaking gear intentionally, verbal harassment, refusal to lead or be led, general disruption, extremely foul language, property damage, etc). The complaining boys feel that this latest matter is the last straw.

 

This matter will come to the next committee meeting. I am asking for your input because I know that I am not impartial. At what point do you decide that a boy's behavior is enough to remove him from a troop? Is this enough? Scouting would be a lot more pleasant for many of the boys if they didn't have to deal with these two. Then again, the troop has allowed these fellows to get to Life rank despite track records of such behavior.

 

Please note, I am looking for constructive suggestions and other perspectives for how to respond to this specific matter - I am not looking for invectives against the troop's past handling or practice (which, I agree, has not been stellar at times).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Not a good situation to be in and good luck.

 

My take. #1 get the PLC involved. That's right the PLC needs to haev a talk about the problems with the SM. SPL should be taking notes to give to the SM abotu the problems. Youth usually know more abotu what's going on than the adults do.

 

#2 After the PLC meeting, SM meets with Troop Committee. If violence and destuction are actually involved, that needs to be brought up ASAP. Also the "exit interviews' on why folks are leaving should be brought up.

 

#3 If there is enough to remove the youth, get the COR and IH's in the loop ASAP as they are ultimately responsible and can void the committee's descision.

 

#4 have a meeting with the youth and parents informing them of the youths removal fromt he troop. I would have a copy of their records available and a transfer form filled out forthem to move to another unit.

 

[dg98adams]

Sounds like there is no effective PLC, other than the SPL and the "core" group. Or they were not allowed to manage the Scouts thru the PLC.

 

I would hazard to guess the boys are either brothers or tight friends.

 

I would also guess the boys are children of the CC or long-standing Scout position within the Troop everyone is not willing to get on their bad side.

 

It sounds like the previous SM may not have been able to effectively counsel these boys during the advancement process.

 

It does sound like the Scouts (not referencing boys anymore) in your Troop have made their grievances known.

 

I think it will be good to let it continue to play out.

 

Be prepared to find another Troop as an option if these Scouts don't get some resolution.

 

(This message has been edited by dg98adams)(This message has been edited by dg98adams)

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

If the Scoutmaster chose to not take immediate action at the time of the event, bringing it before the PLC is definitely the way to go. You just need to be prepared to live with the results; if they choose no disciplinary action, let it go, or to back them to the hilt if they do. Our Scouts can often be better judges than adults on an appropriate punishment in situations like this. We have had this happen in our troop on a couple of occasions and I think that the PLC dealt with the situations much better than the troop committee would have. It also keeps it at the youth level, which to my way of thinking, should carry more weight when conveying the decision to the scouts and their parents - peer decision. If the troop committee has to make the decision, the normal reaction by the parents will be that you're "picking" on their lil' darlings. Also, if no discipline is deemed necessary by the troop committee, members who may later be asked to sit on an EBOR will not be prejudiced against these two boys by hearing a litany of complaints against them.

[BrentAllen]

What's one of the worst statements that can be made about a Troop?:

 

"What does it take to get kicked out of that Troop?"

 

I guess I would be more concerned about the reputation of the Troop than your current SM. The reputation of the Troop is just like the reputation of an individual - it takes years to establish, and only minutes to destroy. When Scouts are leaving a Troop because of the bad behavior of a few, it is time to take action. I don't know that I would start out with full dismissal, but would probably look at suspension for a time period, with a clear description of the inappropriate behavior that needs to be corrected. Bring them back in under a probationary period, during which time they must show improvement or they are dismissed.

[Twocubdad]

First of all, yes you CAN be removed from a troop for eating someone's chips. (See "last straw" theory.)

 

The thing you have going for you is that this seems to be a ground swell from he boys. I would encourage that. But I also remember from some of your other posts that the adults clearly run the troop. It makes me wonder how receptive the leadership will be to the Scouts' input.

 

You need to have a real heart-to-heart with the Scouts. It this how they want to handle the situation? What have they learned in Scouting which applies? What are the pertinent parts of the Oath and Law? Have they been Friendly and Kind in their dealings with the tw knuckleheads? Or maybe they need to be thinking about the younger boys in the troop and how they are affected by the behavior of those two. It needs to be an honest conversation. Maybe they decide to try a different tack with the two guys. Maybe the decide they still need to go.

 

If they decide to proceed, make sure the boys understand what they are getting into. It could get ugly. They need to be prepared to see it through. This isn't a fight they want to start then get cold feet. What's the end game? Are they prepared to leave the troop over it? Are they prepared that this is the kind of thing which can tear a unit apart?

 

Still in? I would have you son -- with the other guys physically with him -- meet with the committee chairman. They should ask to speak at the next committee meeting.

 

It is wholly approrpriate for you to help coach the boys with their presentation -- expecially their tone. Kids can be like a whole herd of cattle in a china shop. It would be easy for their complaint to be received as an attack on the leaders' performance. (And maybe they should, but you understand that the leader's handling of the situation is not the problem you're trying to solve -- for now.)

 

This is a real-life application of what Scouting is all about. This isn't working out a menu or solving a dispute over who cleans up after dinner. Good luck.

[ScoutNut]

I am not sure why some of you feel that is the responsibility of the YOUTH in a unit to enforce disipline.

 

From the Guide to Safe Scouting - in BOLD print -

 

"Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it."

 

"The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit."

 

As I noted, the above are in BOLD print, and clearly state that the responsibility is the unit leaders (SM), and the unit Committee's, ALONG WITH the parents of the Scout.

 

Lisa, if your unit leaders have discussed the behavior of these boys with their parents before then this will not be a complete suprise to them.

 

In regards to the past behavior of these boys, the Guide to Safe Scouting states, also in BOLD print -

 

"The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member."

 

These boys have been lucky so far because of your Troop's leadership. Since the Troop did pretty much nothing about past incidents, kicking them out of the Troop now, over what the parents might feel is a "minor" incident (especially compared to the other incidents) might seem over the top.

 

I would recommend that the SM and the CC have a heart to heart talk with these parents. Explaining their sons past behavior, the consequences of that behavior, and the fact that while stealing snacks might seem small stuff in of itself, in the light of all of the rest it is not. I would recommend a suspension for a month, or two, while these boys decide if Scouting is really for them. I would also recommend that they make it VERY clear that the requirement of Scout Spirit will not be signed off until there is BIG improvement in behavior, and that any kind of repeat behavior will very possibly result in their membership in the Troop being revoked.

 

This brings the parents into the decision, and gives the boys and their families a concrete set of expectations and consequences.

 

Good luck!

[Crew21_Adv]

Lisabob,

 

Greetings!

 

Here are my thoughts.

All young boys should benefit from the products of Scouting. To be able to make ethical and moral decisions throughout their lifetime, usually this trait is gained thru physical fitness, character development and citizenship training.

 

Here are a couple of the questions I ask, whenever I've come across similar situations.

 

- Is Boy Scouting the only program that can serve these "couple of boys"? No.

- Can this Scout be redeemed? Possibly. Maybe Yes, maybe No.

 

It is up to that Scout and the Troop Committee. They may have already broken their last straw, or used the final silver bullet.

 

There are other youth sports and character development programs across America. I feel that none are as good and comprehensive as the BSA, but there are other youth programs that can be found in various communities.

 

I have only seen one place in writing, that comments on removing the membership from Scouting. It is found in chapter one of the Guide to Safe Scouting. Youth member behavior guidelines and member responsibilities.

 

Possibly during the next PLC and Committee Meeting bring the G2SS publication with you, ask if these couple of Scouts to read aloud this paragraph, and ask have conducted themselves within the guidelines or broken the guidelines. Possibly begin with asking these two Scouts to review the G2SS chapter and answer if they have abided by these guidelines.

 

These couple of Scouts may realizes (albeit too late) that they have not behaved as a Scout, and based off their own behavior their membership may be revoked.

 

If its determined to revoke their membership within your troop. Recommend some academic programs, character programs, and fitness programs where they may better be served to achieve their new goals.

 

Good Luck!

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Eagle92]

Scoutnut,

Yep the adult leaders are ultimately responsible for behavior and discipline. BUT part of becoming a leader is being able to control the behior of the group you are responible for, whether patrol or troop. If you do not give the PLC authority to handle the discipline problems, to a point, then how can they learn to use their authority and grow if everytime their is a problem, they need to see the SM?

 

Growing up for the most part the PLs and SPL handled discipline problems. Ocassionally the SM did have to get involved, but we usually handled it ourselves. PL reported to the SPL who reported to SM.

[Stosh]

I'm with TwoCubsDad on this one. This level of discipline is not the responsibility of the youth. They are there to avail themselves of the opportunity of the program, not enforce the behavior of others. If the adults cannot provide a safe and constructive environment for the boys, then it's time to get adults in there that can. If these boys are causing problems, separate them out until they get their act together or show them the highway.

 

20 boys and their parents ticked off because of these two boys or 2 parents ticked off because their little ones got the boot.... do the math. I am responsible to provide the best program for the most boys, if there are those that hinder that process, they are asked to find some other opportunities for their boys. End of discussion.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

When the behavior gets to this point, we add requirements on the scout to prevent him from continuing that same behavior. One example that works very well for us is ask the offending scout to bring his parents to the next meeting. Then we briefly list the behavior to explain why the parents are now required at all activities. We do not negotiate because frankly, enough is enough. We just thank the parents for coming and leave the room. Its pretty short and nothing more really needs to be said. Usually a scout that wants to stay will work very hard to stay, the rest fade away. Ive never asked a scout to leave the troop. He always made that choice.

 

Barry

 

[Eagle732]

I just went through this with two brothers acting exactly like you described but probably worse. Here's what I did, pulled them both to the side and said "You are free to pursue your Scouting career elsewhere".

[Twocubdad]

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting the boys should handle the descipline with the two problem kids. Subject to what I wrote before, they need to take their concerns to the SM and committee and let them handle it.

[evmori]

Sounds like these guys are just your typical bullies who have gotten their own way and will continue until they are stopped! I agree the adults should be handling this one and it should be "this is the last straw" approach. One more time & they are history. If you lose adults leaders because of this then maybe they aren't the ones you want in the 1st place.

[Scoutfish]

Lisa, You know..there is no easy answer.

You could pro and con yourself all day and still be undecided.

 

At some point though, and as much as anybody hates to make that decision, you have to look at the greater overall good of the troop. You also have to ask yourself: "Who's troop is it?"

 

Is it worth ruining the experience for a group of boys for the "yet undetermined benifit" of two boys? Are you willing to losew members of the troops and parents too for the sake of two boys who just don't care?

 

As for "Who's troop is it?" , It's simple: IT's EVERYBODY'S TROOP!,and not just the two boys and their parents in question.

 

And looking at it from a survival standpoint, there are two issues I see:

How long will a troop last with only two boys? If all the other leave,, and the two trouble makers are left, what have you got?

Secondly, even if the two troublesome youth leave on their own or Eagle out, what will the rest of ( including future scouts) think of your troop? Your troop could get a bad reputation as one that condones bullying and over bearing parents. It will appear you condone favortism.

Again,not good for the troop.

So, there sre no simple , easy answers. But, you have to stand up and say:"HEY! THis is what we have and it's just not working!" Then fix it!