I need a Why Real Men Dont Curse Speech

[JoeBob]

NoseRule:

 

Responding to an argument against profanity by calling it profane is a touch flacid. (Although I do admit that 'Taurus Excretus' was part of my own adolescent vocabulary.)

 

Kids curse to pump up their perceived coolness. Pointing out that lurid language is the opposite of cool is not belittling the kids, it's belittling the behavior that you want to discourage.

 

Mafaking:

You might try turning this into a vocabulary building exercise. Words that are listed in the dictionary but not defined as 'coarse slang' or 'vulgar' are permitted.

When I excoriate my own children as 'flatulance blossoms', they don't get it. (One day they'll ask me to spell it.) But the release is just as rewarding for me.

 

JoeBob

[nolesrule]

I was not talking about belittling kids, but rather the people who are not Real Men because they use expletives.

 

Yes, there are some people who do use them because of insecurity, but there are many other reasons people use them.

[BrotherhoodWWW]

Yeah nolesrule some of us use such language because it is the norm in our industry, environment, and our friends. Thanks for the defence! Surely some of ya'll never met me or those I work around, live around, etc., hence you would have no confusion on exactly what a real man is and is not! A much better SM minute or discussion to have with boys is how there are options available to using these words but beyond that we should not rush to judgement about folks based on language or skin color or religion or political view points. We should judge ourselves and our actions and serve others!

[DeanRx]

I must admit I'm more in line with BrotherhoodWWW on this one.

 

Instead of trying to control, conjole, ban, or guilt, how about a SM minute about the proper use of language in general. While I agree that integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is watching, I'm not sure the same applies to social dynamic situations such as language.

 

It seems to me, a great many things change between acceptable and unacceptable based on the circumstances and WHO is around you and WHAT you are doing at the time.

 

Flinging profane language at a scout meeting just to try and look cool, thats just dumb. But you hit your hand with a hammer while setting up your tent and one slips out... not that big a deal. Its the CONTEXT not the CONTENT in many cases.

 

Call me old fashioned, but there are certain things and certain language that should not be used around females (the majority of them anyways) and usually your elders or kids. Do I cuss in front of my scouts? NO. Do I cuss when playing cards with my buddies who also happen to be leaders in our unit - you better belive it, and so do they. Do we cuss in front of our wives? Depends, some do, others do not... it also depends on the situation.

 

The thing about rough language and boys between 12-18 is not only does it add to the "cool" factor, but many times its a bond and rite of passage. Its an attitude of, "we can talk like this around each other and we're close enough and have each others' backs to know you aren't ratting me out to my folks and I'm not ratting you out either." There's a lot of "us" versus the "adults" at that age and this is one thing the boys can control and ramp up / ramp down when there are no adults in ear shot.

 

As a previous poster pointed out - his son stated the language in the unit is only cleaned up when there are adults around. Thats fine. Not because it means the youth understand the "standards" or expectations. But because the youth has LEARNED the socially acceptable time, place and context for such activity.

 

To me cussing is a lot like copulating and going to the bathroom - everybody does it, some find it difficult to hear / discuss / and acknowledge the existence of. But when it comes down to it - its not the act itself that is vulgar, but the context. Have sex, go to the bathroom or cuss like a salior on a parkbench in the middle of the day with strangers around, that's pretty vulgar.... do any of the same things in the prvacy of your own home, its not a big deal.

 

The only REAL rub is if kids are using bad language amongst themselves and one (or more) are truely offended by that type of language. Then the discussion is about standing up for yourself and letting others KNOW you personally don't take to such talk and ask them to refrain from it in your presence. But that's not about doing it or not doing it because it is "bad", because one guy who is not as cool as the rest will run and tell an adult, or because "real men don't cuss". That's a discussion about standing up for personal principles, kid to kid or man to man and either holding the other person accountable, or removing yourself from a situation that you personally find offensive.

[Lisabob]

Maybe this is why there is now a "good manners" belt loop for cub scouts.

 

Of course reality is that adults do cuss. I've been known to let fly a few choice phrases when idiot drivers have endangered me on the road. Still, I try not to do it. I also try to watch the way I refer to other people's deities. It is a matter of courtesy to others, and self-respect too.

 

The challenge with Dean's last sentence is that the "removing oneself from the situation" option can result in boys (and their parents) quitting scouts. At least, that has happened in my son's troop. A percentage of the cross overs who quit every year cite this sort of thing. One year, we had a whole group leave because of it. Well, and the bullying that was also occurring, along with the language. Seems the two went hand in hand. Expecting a brand new scout, at 10-11 years old and still in elementary school, to stand up to a bunch of older kids about bad language is probably not realistic. We lost several good scouts and parents to this. What a shame, these were exactly the people of character we should want IN the program.

 

For this reason I believe such matters should be addressed and I commend Mafaking for wanting to address it.

[Narraticong]

See Scout Oath- morally straight.

 

See Scout Law- Point #11- Clean

 

You either believe this and do your best to live this way, or you shouldn't raise your hand and repeat them. Simple.

 

Ken

[BrentAllen]

I have to disagree, Brotherhood and DeanRx. Being a Scouter means living by the Oath and Law - all the time, not just when you have your uniform on. If you don't believe that and live that, why should your Scouts?

 

As Scouts and Scouters, we are different from the rest of society. We do live by an Oath and Law. We set an example for those around us. If you don't believe this and live this, then all you really have is a camping club with patches.

 

A Scout is Clean. A Scout keeps is body and mind fit. He chooses friends who also live by high standards. He avoids profanity and pornography. He helps keep his home and community clean.

 

From my old BS HB:

"Another kind of dirt shows up when a person swears, tells dirty stories, or travels around with those who do. You know this is wrong because you usually try to hide it from people you respect. It's hard to get rid of this kind of dirt. It doesn't wash off.

The easiest way to be clean and stay clean is to not get dirty in the first place. This is true of both the dirt you can see and the other kind that can get into your heart and mind and shows up in the way you talk and act.

You will be judged in part by the friends you have. It has been said that if you travel with thieves, you will be considered a thief. "Unfair," you say? Maybe so. But we tend to make friends with people who are like ourselves."

 

We just had a Scout transfer into our Troop, who is in the 8th Grade. One of the reasons he said he moved was because of the bad language in the other unit - F bombs being dropped all the time. This went hand in hand with some pretty bad behavior. Sorry, but in no way, shape, or form is this Scout behavior, or in keeping with Scout Spirit.

 

Finally, I find the excuse - "I have to cuss because all my co-workers do" - very amusing. No, you don't. On the other hand, you could be setting an example for them by not cussing. Ah, but that would require courage and self-control. Probably too much to ask. It's much easier to just be a Scout on Troop meeting night.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[Mafaking]

 

Brent,

 

There likely is a correlation between bad troops and an excess use of profanity by the scouts.

 

 

 

 

[SSScout]

Don't forget that most important part of the Computer SAcience MB:::

 

GIGO.(This message has been edited by SSScout)

[DeanRx]

Please do not take my previous post as an endorsement of foul language. I was just pointing out that the socially acceptable dialouge changes based on WHO is around.

 

Cussing at scout gatherings in general is a no-no. If the boys are doing it, they should be called on it. If they are doing it behind the backs of the adults, then there is little you can do about it. If some are doing it and a few are "tattle-tales" (for lack of a better term), then do you really think you are making those scout's lives easier by reacting to the situation?

 

As for the "you either live the scout law or you don't".... don't get me started on that one.

 

There needs to be a 13th point about "I scout is not self-rightous". Far too much of that going on in BSA as I've seen. A scout is 'clean' - I understand that. I am not saying one should go out of their way to use foul language, but it should NOT be held as the only (or even the most important) trait when judging one's character.

 

"Morally Straight" - that is open to interpretation... who gets to set the morals? I would argue that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is not very "morally straight" but BSA has chosen to dig their heels in on that one.

 

What of "trustworthiness" - This one seems to be very low on many scouter's list (especially council offices recently) when dealing with promises / commitments made with regards to popcorn sales and camping reservations. Who is the less scoutlike... an adult / scout who cusses or an adult / scout who makes commitments to do something for the unit or community and then no-shows or backs out at the last minute?

 

What of "Thrifty" - Yes the economy is in the toliet, but I've been hit up 3 times this year to increase an FOS donation that I already gave more than I've ever given... where does thrifty line up against clean in the order of things? The only time I've heard from our DE in the past 6 months is for him to ask me for money or for him to ask me to ask the parents in my unit for more donations. Yes, there have been curse words regarding him uttered under my breath... no I don't appologize for it.

 

Real men may not curse, but they also follow through on their commitments, they provide, they do what they say they are going to do. So what if I might use some colorful speech once in awhile, so long as its not around scouts, not around kids in general, not around those that I know would take offense.

 

That to me is the LESSON to be taught. It is situational awareness. It is taloiring the standard to the dynamics of the event / listener. To state "You either believe in the oath and law or you don't" or "You either follow the oath and law or you don't" is to oversimplify the life lessons scouting aims to teach, IMHO.

 

Do you believe in the oath? Yes. Do you do your best to follow it? Yes. Are there times when you haven't? Yes. No one is perfect. We must get away from teaching kids that everything is ALWAYS black and white. They need to be taught that there is a right and wrong time for most things in life and how to determine the CONTEXT of appropriateness. Otherwise, we end up with cub scouts being expelled from school for bringing a camp utensil for lunch, or a girl being kicked out for giving Motrin to a classmate for menstral cramps, or people in general who can't think for themselves and make a case-by-case determination of what is appropriate in a given situation..... Oh wait.... all those things have already happened and that attitude exists in our society today.

[Narraticong]

"Situational Awareness" is a great term to use when we choose to avoid admitting our weaknesses. If something is inappropriate around the boys, why is it really any more appropriate at other times? If we tell the boys it is not appropriate to swear, why then, is it OK for to do it amongst adults? Is that what is meant by situational awareness? When does swearing go from inappropriate to being OK? If it is wrong, then it is wrong.

 

Self rightous? By no means do I claim to always live up to the ideals of the Scout Oath and Law. They are targets for me to strive toward. No human yet has achieved perfection. My earlier post did not say we must always live up to our goals. But we must be honest enough to admit our weaknesses and try to do better. To say swearing is OK sometimes and not OK sometimes is no more than giving in to our weaknesses.

 

And as I see it, that has been one of the major downfalls of our society. "I'm OK, You're OK" just ain't so.

 

KO

[BrentAllen]

Situational awarenesss, moral relativism, situational ethics... Our Youth Detention Centers are filled with youth who were raised with this kind of thinking. They don't know the difference between right and wrong. On the important issues, it is a black and white world. You are either pregnant, or you aren't. You are either under-age drinking, or you aren't. You are either doing drugs, or you aren't. Rationalizing should not be your strongest skill.

[DeanRx]

So, since its not OK to drink around the scouts, then I should never have a beer?

 

Its not OK to hunt with scouts - I should never hunt?

 

Sorry, don't quite follow your logic on that one. There are many things that are not black and white and NO our youth detention centers are not full of kids because they were taught "moral relativism"... they are full because noone in the kid's life took the time to TEACH them to determine right for wrong in the context of a dynamic world.

 

60 years ago, it was OK (in some circles even encouraged) to dislike someone because of their skin tone. There were many that would suggest that I would be teaching "moral relativism" if I suggest that blacks and whites and every other color should be allowed to date and marry.

 

The norms change with society - thats just how life is. The trick is to teach proper JUDGEMENT.

 

I don't swear a great deal. I'm not proud that I do. But I do it. I try my hardest not to do it in situations that I know would offend folks. I just don't think the majority of one's character (mine or someone else's) should be based on one facet of their personality, especially as one dynamic and varried as language.

 

Situational awareness has nothing to do with avoid one's weaknesses. Narraticong, do you really have to ask WHY there are some things that are OK amongst adults and not around kids? Some things are OK for adults and not kids - period. And no, thats not justifying it. And double no, I do not have to explain it to the kids.

 

BrentAllen- we're not talking about teen pregnancy, under-age drinking, or doing drugs. For all of those issues you raise there are LAWS that make it illegal to do so (statutory rape, drinking age laws and drug laws). There is no law I know of that makes it illegal to use foul language - in fact I'm pretty sure that type of thing is protected by our laws. Please do not suggest that kids who cuss are more likely to drink, do drugs or get knocked up... there are plenty that do these things that use clean language as well.

 

If there is an issue in your unit address it and be done with it. But please do not suggest someone else is less a scout or a poor leader because they take the position that its "out of sight, out of mind". Really, its just words. Some folks are just wrapped too tight most of the time. Go ahead and stamp it out - the boys will just make up new words and code words to mean the same thing and you can chase your tail trying to curtail those. The more an adult pays attention to it, the bigger deal it is and the more likely the boys are to latch onto it and make and issue of it.

[Lisabob]

" There is no law I know of that makes it illegal to use foul language - in fact I'm pretty sure that type of thing is protected by our laws. "

 

Well you had to ask, didn't you Dean. Michigan had exactly such a law, prohibiting the use of foul language in earshot of women and children, until about five years ago. A guy and his buddies were canoeing. Somehow, the fellow ended up in the water, instead of in the canoe. He let loose a blue streak. Little did he know, just around the bend were some women and children. His case actually went to court, where he was convicted and fined.

 

The law was eventually overturned as a direct result of the general uproar, but it had been on the books for decades and, evidently, was still being enforced from time to time.

[Mafaking]

 

 

'A guy and his buddies were canoeing. Somehow, the fellow ended up in the water, instead of in the canoe. He let loose a blue streak.'

 

I wonder if this guy used to be a scout?

 

My guess, Yes!

 

Now if only his SM had given him the 'Why Real Men Don't Curse' speech he would not have been fined.