Youth Protection Issue or Over-reaction?

[dewASM]

I am the Scoutmaster of a very new (3 months), very young (11-13 yo) and pretty small (11 scouts) troop. I have one ASM with whom I have had some issues. He moved up last February with his webelos and has had trouble transitioning to the Boy Scout program. In addition, he has publicly challenged me on mostly really ridiculous issues things like causing a scene in front of parents over the type of bacon being taken on a campout. I am also frustrated in that some things I ask him to handle do not get done. I provide this background because I want to be sure this has not colored my reaction to something that happened this weekend.

 

Four adults (more than I truly needed) took seven scouts to an event at a local "diamond mine". Over 400 Scouts got to mine and work on the geology merit badge. At the end of the day, there was about an hour and a half of free time. The Scouts had several ways to spend the time and I said they had to stay at least with a buddy - no one off on their own.

One of the youngest Scouts went off with the ASM to a museum type building. We were in a public place, however it seems to me this is not acceptable. I feel that it was not safe for either the child or the ASM. One of the other adults felt I was over reacting because it was public but I could see real issues the Scout could accuse the ASM of taking him to a secluded spot and there is no protection. Or on the other side, the ASM could have left the museum area with the Scout. I am not saying anything was out of line but I felt the situation left everyone open to trouble.

 

In addition, I also felt that the Scout should have been encouraged to spend time with our Scouts, bond with members of his patrol not be off with an adult. This is, in my opinion, a problem with this ASM's transition. He does not seem to get the idea that he should take a back seat in the program. He seems to want to be a Scout, do what they do, be right in the middle of the boys. Or he goes to the other extreme and wants to micromanage. I can't seem to get him to buy into a boy led program for boys.

 

Okay was the situation this weekend a youth protection issue or am I overreacting?

 

Was going to have a long talk with the ASM before this week's meeting but wanted input from disinterested observers.

thanks

dew

[Eagle92]

Since I've seen problems like this, and was almost the victim of one, I do consider ti a major YP issue. Remember that YP is not only for the scouts, but also the leaders as well.

 

A very good freind of mine was accused of propostisioning a "scout". Scout was running around after hours, and the female ASM caught him while walking back from a staff meeting. Long story short, the "scout" accuses her of making a pass at him, and she gets booted out of Scouting.

 

Why do I say "scout," well that same individual accused me of giving him permission to run around after hours after I caught him and he ran away. Luckily soem of his companions recanted their story abotu me givign them permission.

 

Another ASM I knew was 'accused" of hitting a scout by a parent at summer camp. What parent didn't know, and luckily others witnessed the event, was that the scout attacked the ASM and he was defnding himself.

[Rayburn]

Whether or not you are overreacting I can't say for sure, but as in so many other instances our society has surely overreacted.

 

Nonetheless I think you are correct to raise this instance with your ASM, not because you believe he did or would do anything inappropriate but rather for HIS protection. My original YP trainer pointed out that YP rules are as much for the protection of the adults as for the youth. You should make this point with your ASM.

[kbandit]

Ok since I'm the first response I'll ask "Is he trained for his position and Youth Protection trained?" If not I would strongly suggest he do the on-line ASAP.

 

Did he have a cub scout position? Ex Cubmaster perhaps? Used to being in control? Could the conflict(kind of bacon) and not doing things be his way of having power or feeling of lack of control? My council at the University of Scouting has a class on how to get along with difficult people.

 

Hope the scouts had a good time mining.

 

Please try and avoid conflicts with this person. They will probley not change. Is this person your only ASM?

 

Could your Committee Chairman or Charter Organization Rep. be there with you if you choose to speak to this ASM? Sounds like you need a 3rd person present. Just for CYA.

 

Goodluc.

[ScoutNut]

The YP rule you are speaking about is the following from the Guide to Safe Scouting -

 

"No one-on-one contact.

One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted. In situations that require personal conferences, such as a Scoutmaster's conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults and youths."

 

You stated that, aside from the rest of the public who were there, there were 400+ Scouts and the Scouters/parents who accompanied them.

 

It seems to me that the ASM and the Scout were "in full view" of a large number of both youth and adults. This is definitely NOT a YP issue in my mind. So, yes, I feel you are over reacting.

 

Was this ASM's son in attendance?

 

Did this young Scout not have any friends in the group?

 

Have you talked to your SPL about helping the newbies integrate into the Troop so that they do not feel like outsiders?

 

Is this ASM fully trained?

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, sometimes I wish that da chapter on adult leaders in the Troop Committee Guidebook began with a big "If you appoint someone to an ASM / senior committee position in their first year in the program you are a complete idiot."

 

Takes time to deprogram 'em from Cub Scouting at least. And some of 'em never get it. Causes troops no end of grief.

 

I think what yeh have, dewASM, is a fellow who probably isn't ready for da ASM job. To be honest, takin' the lad away from the buddy system is a bigger issue in my book, because that's somethin' we're trying to teach the boys. He should have been with a youth buddy.

 

In the big world of youth protection violations, this is a small one, and fairly innocent. I'd typically mention it offhandedly in a "What would you do if the lad made an accusation?" sort of way to get the point across. Of course if they were gone for hours and no one could find 'em, that's a different matter, which merits a stronger response.

 

But your real issue is that yeh have a fellow in an ASM position who isn't ready for it, eh? That's a situation that has to be addressed, but handled with a lot of courtesy and finesse. Often it works best to promote 'em out of the way. "Joe, we appreciate your work as ASM, but we really need someone to take over as Advancement Chair". Unless of course he's a fellow who just doesn't work and play well with others, in which case yeh need a task he can really do on his own.

 

Hope that helps a bit, anyways. If yeh share more info, maybe we can give more targeted advice.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Following up on Beavah's comments, I suggest you set up some criteria for your adults who wish to be ASMs. Hopefully it will help prevent this type situation from happening again.

 

In our Troop, we register new leaders as committee members initially. Those who wish to be ASMs go through all the SM/ASM training, and then spend a year being very active with the Troop. If they "get" the program and work well with the Scouts, they can become ASMs. If not, the CC will decide if he wants to keep him on committee. I have found that when adults have to earn that ASM patch, they take the job more seriously, and they earn a little more respect from the other parents.

 

As for the YP issue, it sounds as if it wasn't a by-the-book violation, but maybe it wasn't a good idea.

[Twocubdad]

I think you are over reacting.

 

In a public place there is clearly no YP issue. I like to do Scoutmaster conferences at a local coffee shop because it is in public. Even the issue of the Scout being with the ASM instead of his mates isn't a big deal to me either. It was free time, right? If the Scout wanted to go in the museum instead of the what ever the other boys were doing, so what. It was his choice.

[dewASM]

Thanks everyone for some great insights.

 

This ASM is trained and has completed YP. He just isn't 'getting' it on several levels. He doesn't get boy run or the occasional chaos that goes with it. Yet it often seems that he wants to join in the scouting rather providing the needed leadership. For example, at a council camporee, the ASM wanted to attend First Aid classes with the boy but wasn't supervising boys or making sure they completed their tasks. He was just hanging around "learning". At lunch break, instead of supervising clean up as requested he was playing soccer. At campout, I caught him trying to give the Scouts 'his' answer to a troop challenge. He is not one of the Scouts, he is a leader and should not be giving answers. Guidance maybe not answers. Nothing in his behavior is threatening, just annoying.

 

Eagle92's comments made me realize that perhaps I am hyper-vigilant because of recent events in our community. Our parish priest was recently arrested for inappropriate contact with young men including several in our troop. The young man I mentioned was not involved. however, I guess I am looking at every action through the lens of having seen what these accusations/charges do to people and communities. I think in our community at this moment, you have to err on the side of extreme caution. thank you Eagle92 for making that clear to me. I will carefully explain my concerns and insist on being overly cautious.

 

Many thanks to Beavah and BrentAllen for wonderful suggestions as we go forward. Being a new Scoutmaster in a new troop I learn something new to do - or not do- at every turn. Your suggestions definitely go on my to do list. We are all learning as we go and improving all the time. The campout in October was better attended and better run than the one in August. Each meeting the boys do more for themselves. We are making progress. I think the CC and I will have to do some planning to ensure better adult support.

 

AS to my frustrations with the ASM I try to remain very calm and provide guidance and explanation, but sometimes it feels like having one more Scout, one more person to supervise. For example, at the recent mining event, there was a sheet of information to complete. I know one of your Scouts has a physical disability that makes writing laborious. I told the Scout someone would help with the actual writing if he was unable to do it particularly because it was cold and VERY rainy making his tremors worse. I then asked the ASM to oversee this young man's progress. At the last session, when I went to collect sheets, the young man had completed very little. I helped him complete it but was disappointed that the ASM had dropped the ball. Truthfully, if I have to monitor the ASM, I might as well do it myself. Similarly, at the last campout, the ASM was supposed to supervise two young Scouts who were in charge of dinner clean up. (None of our Scouts have much camping experience which is why we left the old troop - no outdoor program at all. And the 2 times in 2 yrs that they camped, adults did all the cooking and most of the clean up) I turn around and one Scout has wandered away to do something else and the ASM is gone too. On a good note, the SPL and ASPL returned from taking a few boys to get wood and they jumped right in to get clean up finished. Yeah!!

 

Thanks for letting me vent! And all the good ideas. Many things are improving, the boys are having a great time so I guess life is good. Since we were chartered in June, we have done a week in summer camp, two council campouts, a six mile hike and the mining event. We sold popcorn and are gearing up for Scouting for Food.

 

dew

[evmori]

I would agree with TCD, you are over reacting.

[Eagle92]

Beavah brings up a very good point about CS leaders moving up to BS leaders, they sometimes don't get it. they have, hopefully, been trained at least 3 times: TCDL, CSDL, & WDL, to be in charge organize things, yada yada yada, and been doign it for so long that it becomes second nature. To paraphrase Yoda, they have much to unlearn.

 

I'm just as guilty and hope my problem doesn't get any worse. I am transitioning into CS mode, and at the last OA meeting I went to, I was being one of those cut-in adults.

[Stosh]

Situations arise all the time and I've been guilty of them from time to time. An adult and/or boy runs the risk at more opportunities than one wishes to consider.

 

Last night we had an open house for the new Webelos boys. My SPL (3 months short of his 18th birthday) did a fantastic job of having patches laid on tables, a PowerPoint preso on a laptop, Dutch oven cooking and other activities for the patrol to have fun with the visitors. His dad showed up and when the activity broke up he left telling his son he'd see him back at home in few minutes. The boy had to pack up all his stuff because he drove himself early to set everything up.

 

Well, I stayed and helped him load up his car. My choice? Leave him there alone or stay and help him pack up his car. Neither was a viable option under YP.

 

Yes, we all take chances and hope that one can avoid as many situations as possible, but it's not always possible.

 

Stosh

[OldGreyEagle]

another option was to have another adult stay with you and help the SPL pack up, the second to last adult to leave, you being the last should have waited.

 

I think it was Spock who said there are always alternatives

[sandspur]

It is a frequent misinterpretation that YP required two YP-trained adult scouters to be present at all times with youth.

 

But that is hardly workable. If that is your troops interpretation, then 4 leaders (which you said you considered too many) would be the minimum needed, since you could never go anywhere with the scouts without at least two of you.

 

If it is a public place, in clear sight of others, you are not alone with the youth and there is no YP violation.

 

As others have pointed out, the real issue is the ASMs lack of skills to be an ASM. But in discussing that with him, my advice is to keep the YP issue out of it, since that is not the true issue and will just distract you and him.

 

One issue I see for your troop is you want to be youth led (Right on!) but you have no older leaders. So no role model for the scouts or for the ASM. The ASM has no opportunity to see how an older, developed SPL runs things. Until your troop develops the older leaders, it will be a transition where I suspect you will require more adult guidance than a more established troop.

 

In fact, since your troop is about three months old with the oldest scout 13, do you even have an SPL? Could the oldest, most experienced scout be a tenderfoot? If that is the case, the ASMs Cubscout orientation may be closer to the mark than advice which pertains to troops with Life and Eagle scouts running things. Question is, Can he evolve as the troop does?

 

Unfortunately, that is out of my experience. Any advice from the forum on this?

(This message has been edited by Sandspur)

[Stosh]

Would have, should have, could have, are all alternative options, but with the confusion of the meeting wrapping up, the parents all picked up their boys and headed out and before we realized what had happened, it was too late. So the cards were dealt, and not all are winning hands. The key mixup was with the boy and his parent driving two different vehicles and the parent left. By the way the parent should have, would have, could have known better because he is the former SM and current CC of the troop. We both messed up as did the boy.

 

Stosh