Disruptive Scouts at meetings

[Buffalo Skipper]

We have had a fairly laid back culture at our troop for some time now. The little structure we had was generated by older scouts who no longer attend meetings. One of these scouts is just blatently deifiant, and though he has now left the troop, he has left his mark on the other scouts. This core of 3-4 scouts are very disruptive and in general disrespectful. Two are real clowns, and will interrupt constantly, trying to get a laugh. They make disruptive noises, talk back and make themselves the center of attention. Both are Tenderfoot going who are ready to become a Second Class.

 

I am not trying to have our leaders build a "military" type of disciplined troop. In fact I am really trying to create a troop which is fun, laughing and happy; but there is a time for everything. We want to make it clear that this behavior is not acceptable. So, how to we enforce this without being adult directed. I refuse to accept that this must be entirely left to the scouts to implement; that would only be chaos perpetuating chaos, which in part is what the troop has had for years. The question is how do we instill (and enforce) this expecation on the patrols and scouts when it has been done in the past?

[sandspur]

A strong SPL is your best bet, one who sees this behavior as a problem and wants to correct it.

Then, let the SPL know you will back him up.

 

Our ultimate sanction is that if the SPL decides to, he can send a scout home from a meeting or campout, the parents being called to come get the miscreant.

 

The parents are seldom amused by jrs behavior.

 

[Eagle92]

Use your youth leadership. As suggested SPL can be a positive influnce. Also if teh SPL does talk to teh scout(s) in question, I would also have their PL there as well and allow the PL to correct him and work with him.

 

Another idea would be to have an action packed weekend that reguires the patrol to work as a team. If they mess around it affects the entire patrol. the weekend is designed to either let them realize they must work together or they will fail. If they succeed, have the SPL do a reflection, or lead one yourself if the SPL isn't comfortable doing it (yes I ahev met a few). If they fail, agin have a reflection on how they can do better.

[Eagledad]

Hi Buffalo Skipper

 

I try and teach that discipline of behavior is everyones responsibility. In other words, we work as a team.

 

In this case, I ask that the group leader first ask the disrupter to stop with a clear warning they will need to leave the room if they dont stop. No second chances, just get the interference out of the room if they act up again so the activity isnt interrupted. Typically these guys are just seeking some kind attention. If the disruption does continue, the group leader ask the scout to leave and find the SM to explain what happen, resulting in a SM conference. If the problem persists, then the parents get involved. Either the SPL or the SM can asked the scout to call the parents, it just depends who is dealing with the problem. I always make the scout do the call. I dont mind getting the parents involved because we are a team and the parents are part of the team.

 

What you are doing is allowing the leaders deal with the situation within their experience and maturity. That way the leader doesnt loose respect of his leadership responsibility. However, once it goes farther, you give him and out by moving the problem out of the room so the group can continue their activity while the next person up the ladder deals with the problem. The next person up the ladder may be an adult or scout, just depends on the maturity and experince required for the problem. Worst case scenario is the parents have to come to the meeting and stand with their son. Ive seen it go that far only once, and only one meeting. It was a special needs scout who pushed the limits hard, but it worked.

 

The important lesson here is the scouts learn to just move the problem out of their way and deal with it later or let someone else deal with it. I saw this really work well when one of our Scouts was leading a meeting with all the SPLs in the District. When one scout became a problem, our scout just asked him to leave. No confrontation, no yelling, just get out. The observing adults from the other troops were very impressed as well as the SM of the problem Scout.

 

For those that ask what happens when a scout is defiant and doesnt leave, I teach the scouts to back up the leader. I suggest that an SPL should only have to ask a scout to stop once during a Troop meeting. The Patrol Leaders should automatically takeover from there so that the SPL can continue. Always work in numbers so that the leaders dont loose control.

 

What you will see happen is as the scouts mature, they will take on more of these problems and you will see less of them.

 

Hope that was an answer that helps.

 

Barry

 

[Stosh]

When I came into the troop I currently serve, I announced that I do not use "sign's up" to get their attention. Instead I wait for them to quiet down and my PL's quiet their boys with a hush or the "look". I have told them that "sign's up" is just way of me interrupting them so I don't use it and ask them not to interrupt me then when I have something to say. This process has worked well for the two years I have been SM. When I walk to the front to address them, they quite themselves very quickly and so I have had no "reason" to ever use it.

 

When we have speakers, the PL's generally "enforce" the hushing/looks and it's rather remarkable how well the boys pick up on it.

 

I'm not saying it's perfect, but when a boy or two gets a little disruptive, I merely stop and wait for them to finish. Usually the PL's address the issue and then I continue with no big fuss or bother.

 

Most of the time disruptions are means by which boys seek attention and negative attention is just as good as positive. However, negative attention from peers does have a quelling affect that negative attention from adults can't do.

 

I have noticed that even if a boy raises a hand while I'm speaking, his PL will give him a quiet, "Wait until he asks for questions." so as to not disrupt the speaker. If I see this happen, I speak a bit more and then take a specific question break at an appropriate place. Now the boys just raise their hand until I look their way and then put it down to wait for the break. Thus their respectful silence can be encouraged by taking a break they have signaled for.

 

When a boy is teaching a lesson to his patrol/troop, it is understood that from, "Hi, my name is..." to "Any questions?" he is to be respected with attentive behavior. If he is interrupted, he just stops as I have given example and waits until the group quiets down and he continues.

 

Like "sign's up", it is just a less intrusive method we use to accomplish the same thing.

 

Stosh

[evmori]

Call mom & dad and tell them to come and pick up their little gems. When they get there, tell them until these children can act like Scouts they are no longer welcome.

[ntrog8r]

Not knowing what you've already tried, this is a little difficult but,

 

> Scoutmaster Conference, on 0n one with the troublemakers. Direct questions about the behavior, frank open discussions about respect, teamwork, cooperation, Scout Spirit, and their continued involvement with the Troop - i.e. Do they want to be there, why/why not.

> Scoutmaster Conference with parents, AND THE SCOUT, about the same topics.

> As sandspur said, send them home - the SPL or you can make this call.

> Depending on how bad it is, the next time they disrupt the SM "to get a laugh", stop what you're doing immediately. You can either have an open conference with the Troop right then about how their behavior affects the meeting, the other Scouts, reflects on them, etc with the other Scouts involved (keep it respectful, this NOT to embarrass them, though it may, but to get the Troop involved in the process of helping themselves), OR (and you must know your Scouts to determine if this will work) just turn, walk away and sit down and do something else. Wait for the Scouts to come to you and ask what's going on, explain you will not participate while that is happening, OR Call each Scout by name that is NOT disruptive, take them to a different area and complete what you're doing. You will need two other adults to keep the troublemakers where they are with some kind of training. Do NOT share what happened while you were out with the other Scouts, they can ask the other Scouts what they missed. DO tell their parents they missed part of the meeting and why, again do not pass the info missed to the parents, tell them their sons can get with their PLs for that. If they're doing this to the PLs, have the PLs send them to you during the meeting, again they will have to get with the other Scouts for whatever they've missed.

> As Eagle92 said, team building games may work. Give instructions once, quietly. Do not repeat them and have the Patrols begin. There are some great examples out there online.

> Move them into their own Patrol and let them deal with each other and suffer the consequences of their decisions - slow/no rank advancement, poor camping experiences, etc, last in competitions, etc. Be prepared for them to become your top Patrol though if they are acting this way because they are bored and don't feel any challenge in being there.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

[Stosh]

Recently I purchased a small book of one page mysteries, that the boys have to pay attention to in order to gather up all the information and solve the mystery. The first couple of times there were small interferences that caused some of the boys to miss important clues and lost out on winning the prize for solving the mystery.

 

I read the mystery at opening flags and they have the meeting to discuss it amongst their patrols and then ask for their solution at closing flags.

 

Now I have total silence during these times and everyone pays attention. After the first time this happened, I stopped half way through the reading and commented that rapt attention and uninterrupted total silence IS POSSIBLE. Now when I walk up to make announcements, I pull my little book out, they quiet down, I do the announcements uninterrupted and then do the mystery.

 

Boys that are bored will act up. I work at ways to avoid this.

 

I had one boy that was always acting up and as expected he was told to come sit next to me. All boys know this is the best way to get up front of the group were the speaker is and gets a more focused opportunity to screw around. However, every time he began to act up I just continued to talk, but I put my hand on his forearm and he'd pay attention. I did this for a couple meetings and now he can pay attention from any location in the room. I don't touch him, but I look at him and give a quick wink to let him know I'm not letting his behavior interrupt me. Sometimes a little attention from the SM is better than a whole room of scouts. Usually these boys are starved for adult attention at home and through some quiet and simple gestures one can address this issue while they are at a scout meeting.

 

One just has to decide who's going to run the show, you or the disruptive scout?

 

Stosh

[Buffalo Skipper]

Thank you all for the replies. I wrote a reply yesterday, but I decided to be patient and see what everyone had to say, and I am glad that I did. Allow me to clarify the issue a little without railroading my own topic (which, I might add, is entirely within my abilities). Our SPL is underqualified and completely unprepared for meetings. The scouts give an amount of respect equal to the amount of effort he puts into planning: zero. I would put this back on the scouts for electing him, but I find that hard to do because our troop is so young that they have no real expectations of their leaders. The SPL is a significant problem, but I must treat that as separate from this issue, even if it is related.

 

The scouts who are disruptive are not scouts I want out of the troop, in fact, they have quite a bit to contribute to the greater good; two have the potential to be some of the strongest leaders our troop has ever seen. I have some options. I do like the 3-strikes idea Barry proposed (one warning, leave the room, leave the meeting). With an inexperienced SPL this may be hard to enforce fairly, but this may be our best option at the present. We have a strong, experienced scout leader stepping up in the committee, and we have a parents' meeting very soon (but no date set). Is this something we should bring up at that time? Should we warn parents and scouts before hand? Waiting for the parents meeting will delay things by a month, and I believe that may be enough time to cause significant damage. I am more inclined to just start with a 1-2-3 strikes youre out policy.

 

Ntrog8r, I also like the idea of putting them into their own patrol. Like I said, one of these scouts has all the makings of a great leader; he just needs focus and direction. We only have 13 active scouts right now, which is two patrols of 6 plus the SPL. To divide out would make 4 patrols of 4 which would prove extremely problematic. We have problems getting enough of each patrol at campouts to actually call them a patrol. Yet, I will keep this option open, as with a little extra effort, it could prove very intriguing.

 

Stosh, what is the name of your book so I can look into finding an old copy?

[TheSource]

It really gets hard when the three main disruptive scouts are 16 and 17 years old and life scouts and are the sons of the SM and two ASMs, and nothing is being done about it.

 

 

[Stosh]

Buffalo: I'll get the name of the book when I get home this evening.

 

TheSource: You hit the nail on the head. The older boys are bored and it is an open invitation to cause problems. Keep them busy, have them organize an older boys only activity, Life only maybe, and keep them so busy they can't find time to screw around. This keeps them busy and segregates them from the younger boys so they won't be influenced. It also gives motivation for the younger boys to progress so they can get involved in the older boy activities.

 

My boys are constantly complaining because they have so much to get done to keep the program going. Right now they are activitly involved in:

 

1) Planning meals for next year's summer camp. (Patrol Method, cook in-site)

2) Cub Scout Spookaree this weekend and the menus/equipment necessary to go.

3) 2 Eagle projects

4) Popcorn sales

5) Wreath sales

6) Recruiting new scouts with an open house (the following weekend)

7) Advancement for the new boys

8) Annual Activity planning session

9) Youth Leadership Training

10) Organizing a crew to help with Community Thanksgiving dinner

11) Putting up with adult leaders who won't lift a finger to do any of this.

 

It is well known in our troop that if you are so uninvolved in our troop so as to stand around with your hands in your pockets, you must be volunteering for something to do. When someone walks into any of our activities they are quick to notice all the older boys that are stand around will have their arms folded and the younger boys with their hands in their pockets.

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad]

In JLT we teach our guys how to handle disruptions when they are making presentations. There's the "Glare", you can go stand next to the guy causing the disruption or even ask him a question. The last thing you want to do is stop your presentation, put you hands on your hips and fuss at the guy to be quiet. At that point, who is causing the biggest disruption?

 

I hadn't thought of it in terms of working as a team, but that's basically what we do (and in the future I'm going to emphasize the team aspect -- I like that). The PLC members not involved in the presentation are charged with helping to keep order, first by setting a good example and secondly by discretely shooshing guys causing a problem.

 

Beyond that, we go the three strikes route. Scouts who are asked to step out are told to take a chair and sit on the front stoop of the hut until I talk to them. And I'm usually very busy during troop meetings and that can often take a long time.....

 

Have you thought about the physical layout of the room? When I became SM the tradition/habit was for each patrol to sit at tables. That was bad for a couple reasons, first, half the kids had their back to the speaker. It also provided cover for a lot of poking and whispering. Now, we sit in a semi-circle for presentations, which has a couple advantages: first, you can only talk to the two guys on either side of you. Second, the leaders (youth and adult) tend to hang around the outside of the circle. One of my favorite tricks is to pull up a chair and sit behind the guys who are cutting up. A gentle tap on the shoulder makes the point, if they missed it the first time.

 

As to the idea that kids cut up when they are bored: that only goes so far with me. We are very careful to limit sit-down presentations to 20 minutes. Even if it is the most boring thing you have ever heard in your life, you need to be able to politely sit and listen for 20 minutes. But the kids who are acting the clown trying to get attention usually start cutting up from the git-go. It's not about being bored, it's about someone else having the spotlight.

[Eagledad]

>>I hadn't thought of it in terms of working as a team, but that's basically what we do (and in the future I'm going to emphasize the team aspect

[Buffalo Skipper]

******* ************************************************ **********************DoorI-------Visitors Benches-------------IDoor ****Fridge**Troop Area Ptl Table** // / / / \ \ \ \ \ * *QM // / / /\ \ \ \ \ **Closet// / / /\ \ \ \ \Ptl Table**------------------------I**Adult area/ I**desksIF X FPtl Table ** I ***********************************************************************************Here is ourScoutHut, inside dimensions roughly 35x50. To the left is a QM closet behind a Dutch door marked "QM Closet". Visitorsbenches are from the closed Trailways bus station from 20 years ago.Troop area marks chairsfacing the podium marked "X"; troop sits in this area by patrol,filling the seats from front to back."F" markes troop andAmerican flags. Behind the podium is a 4x8 white board. Patrol tables are on the right are plywood break-down picnic tables with office type dividers between patrol areas. Patrols are encouraged to decorate their areas andeach has a 2x4 white board.

This is very different from what it was a year ago. There used to be a table up front and all the "senior scouts" would sit behind the table facing the troop like some judges holding court.Even after I said"no" the older scouts would come in and set up the table. It is only not set up now because they no longer attend meetings.Our podium used to be so large and bulky that you could not see a 12 year old standing behind it; on the front was the scout law and though useful, it was not practical. I made a new one which was a single mahogany 2x2 pillar with a trim but addequate desk top; it is adorned only with a walnut burl inlaid fleur-di-lis. Last year the room was a complete mess, with unused charts, assignments and miscellaneous clutter. The wall behind the patrol areas was painted for patrols which had been dispanded 5 year earlier. The old stuff was taken off the walls which were patched and painted. Much was thrown out, and it is singificantly better organized than before. All this was done to better our environment, and there is a sense of pride where before there was a degree of embarassment. The patrol area have not been decorated yet (almost a year later), and there is not yet a sense of ownership, but that is the goal.

[Stosh]

If you are further down the road than you were last year, or last week for that matter, you are winning. Just keep working at it. Once the boys figure out they are allowed full ownership of the process/program it'll take off and fly on its own. Not all the boys will come to that realization at the same time, but it only takes one and then he influences the next and it's like dominoes.

 

We meet in the American Legion hall and every time we come the room is rearranged differently. Each patrol drags one of the tables off to a separate corner and "sets up camp" for the evening. The flag stands are dragged out of the closet and set up in the most open space of the room, wherever that may be. You have the luxury of having a separate place for your troop. I would be nice, but somehow our boys have figured out how to separate themselves out and get their work done within the limits given. Our patrols have no "home" to take ownership of, but it would be nice some day to have them pick certain spots each week, but with a patrol flag, it's really not all that necessary.

 

Some CO's like churches and schools have Scout Rooms. That would be nice, but it'll never happen for us. When the American Legion meets and needs the room, we have a table down in the basement next to the furnace we can use instead of the big room. I guess that would be the "Scout Room".

 

Stosh